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What happend to my film?


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#1 Joe Riggs

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:10 PM

Hello,

We shot a 16mm short film for a school project, a member of our group is an aspiring DP, and he took on the responsibility and loaded all the film into the camera. There was no weird noises emanating from the camera when we shot, so I was shocked when we received the film back and all the reels look like this (video takes a minute to load)

Sequence 01_1.mov - 15.95MB

The telecine guy thinks it was the camera, however our professor thinks it was an operator error, anyone have any ideas why this happened, and how to avoid it in the future?
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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:17 PM

It looks as though the film is not sitting properly in the gate, with the pressure plate not properly seated. I've only seen something similar to this on a Bolex a while ago when they left the pressure plate "open," when loading.
Really all I can think of.
Though looks pretty surreal.
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#3 Serge Teulon

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:26 PM

I'll go with Andy on this one.
I even though that maybe the shutter was out of sync but it doesn't look like it.

Can you go back to the camera and check?
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#4 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 12:27 PM

If it's the telecine operator then the negative should be good right? I would take a look at that to determine where the problem is.

I'm sure that was disappointing though.

Tom
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#5 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 01:24 PM

If it's the telecine operator then the negative should be good right? I would take a look at that to determine where the problem is.

I'm sure that was disappointing though.

Tom


Clip is short but it looks like a pressure plate or loop problem, never seen streaking caused by any telecine unless maybe it was a cheap "workprinter" system based on a projector.

-Rob-
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#6 Daniel Madsen

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 06:54 PM

I had a similar problem with a short I recently worked on. I am guessing it is more to do with the film loop than the pressure plate. It seems like if the pressure plate wasn't latched everything would be slightly out of focus. Here it looks like the film hadn't come to rest before the shutter opened (caused by such a small film loop that the film was essentially pulling on the camera motor). Just a guess, but I too was mulling this over in frustration.




Dan

Edited by Daniel Madsen, 25 November 2008 - 06:55 PM.

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#7 Joe Riggs

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 06:56 PM

It is definitely not from the telecine, as I was in the telecine when this was discovered. We shot with the canon Scoopic M, I am rather new at this could someone explain the pressure plate?
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#8 Joe Riggs

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 07:09 PM

Dan, there does seem to be an inordinate amount of slightly out of focus footage. Furthermore, the small loop would happen because how the film was loaded? I would like to determine if this occurred because of a faulty camera or an operator error, and warn other groups about it.
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#9 Andres Pardo aka Gral Treegan

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 01:42 AM

Hi!!

it seem like when the k-3 have loop problems. i dont know the cannon scoopic but seemd to be a plate and loop problem like all the guys in the forum told you.

you can try to fix it a little.

for stabilization y recommend mokey or some kind of soft that have a planar tracker not point tracker. and for the frames that have out of focus areas or uneven focus you can try to fix it manually masking out this parts and restore with previous or next frame or you can try virtual dub deshaker.

bye!
G.T

Dan, there does seem to be an inordinate amount of slightly out of focus footage. Furthermore, the small loop would happen because how the film was loaded? I would like to determine if this occurred because of a faulty camera or an operator error, and warn other groups about it.


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#10 Joe Riggs

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:32 AM

Hi!!

it seem like when the k-3 have loop problems. i dont know the cannon scoopic but seemd to be a plate and loop problem like all the guys in the forum told you.

you can try to fix it a little.

for stabilization y recommend mokey or some kind of soft that have a planar tracker not point tracker. and for the frames that have out of focus areas or uneven focus you can try to fix it manually masking out this parts and restore with previous or next frame or you can try virtual dub deshaker.

bye!
G.T


thanks, the software is called mokey?
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#11 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 12:26 PM

Yeah, loop, pressure plate not seated right or pull down claw / sprocket missing the sprocket holes somehow at or near the gate. Most likely loader error, but sometimes a non- kept-up-with magazine and parts inside cause properly loaded film to do this.

Never heard of any software that can fix streaked-image negative.

Bad news: you will very likely have to shoot again.

Sorry.

Edited by Saul Rodgar, 26 November 2008 - 12:29 PM.

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#12 Joe Riggs

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:53 PM

Yeah, loop, pressure plate not seated right or pull down claw / sprocket missing the sprocket holes somehow at or near the gate. Most likely loader error, but sometimes a non- kept-up-with magazine and parts inside cause properly loaded film to do this.

Never heard of any software that can fix streaked-image negative.

Bad news: you will very likely have to shoot again.

Sorry.


Yep we're reshooting, live and learn, what is the ideal size of a film loop? I am still unclear on what the pressure plate is/does? As far as the camera we were using it just had the body, a removable cover and a couple of spools inside.
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#13 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:58 PM

I'm sure Saul or someone else can give you a more detailed answer to your question, but in general the pressure plate holds the film in position when the film is exposed.

I wouldn't shoot again until you know that your camera has all of the necessary parts, if not working, at least present. Maybe post a picture of the open camera so more experienced eyes (not mine) can asses if it looks in order. Or even better if you have a manual, check in there.

Tom

Edited by Tom Hepburn, 26 November 2008 - 05:59 PM.

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#14 Paul Korver

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 06:25 PM

It is definitely not from the telecine, as I was in the telecine when this was discovered. We shot with the canon Scoopic M, I am rather new at this could someone explain the pressure plate?


Hey Joe,
I shoot with Scoopics all the time and agree it looks like a loose pressure plate. It's a common mistake to clean out / check the gate and forget to screw in the pressure plate which will cause footage to look like that. Open the Scoopic and you'll see spring loaded pressure plate right behind the gate... it should be tightened down with the finger screw and locked tight on the gate when positioned properly.

Best,

Paul
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#15 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 12:15 AM

Yep we're reshooting, live and learn, what is the ideal size of a film loop? I am still unclear on what the pressure plate is/does? As far as the camera we were using it just had the body, a removable cover and a couple of spools inside.


The pressure plate keeps the film flat against the gate, as Tom suggested. The reason is twofold: to keep the a the film against the focus plane (the distance from your subject is measured to this point on film cameras -with the aid of the lens' focus ring) and to prevent film surface wobbles that would cause the film to look in focus in some areas and out of focus somewhere else.

And different cameras have different ideal loop sizes. Most modern cameras have some diagram somewhere inside (or in the manual somewhere) to aid threading up. Experience loading film cameras in general and the particular model is being used is always a better bet. But if the camera or magazines are not kept up with, no matter who loads the film, you may very likely have issues with the film not being properly exposed at the gate.

Edited by Saul Rodgar, 27 November 2008 - 12:18 AM.

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#16 Justin Lovell

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 09:34 AM

Clip is short but it looks like a pressure plate or loop problem, never seen streaking caused by any telecine unless maybe it was a cheap "workprinter" system based on a projector.

-Rob-


Had quite a bit of experience with the workprinter in the past, defineately not an issue from one of them. They can have timing issues that cause streaking if not calibrated by the operator, but it would be full frame streaking. This is a camera issue (as stated by other users :)

You could load up a dummy roll into the camera and run film through it with the door open watching the movement. (not sure if the scoopic can accomidate this).
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#17 Simon Wyss

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 08:38 AM

Canon Scoopic 16, 16 M and 16 MS. David W. Samuelson: Motion Picture (Film) Camera Data: "Film threading is semi-automatic. Gate pressure plate may be removed for checking and cleaning. To load, open camera door and place roll of film on rear spindle, trim film end with cutter and insert tip of film into guide. With speed set at 16 or 24 fps, run camera while pressing film. Film will automatically thread. Check loops are properly formed, secure loose end of film to take-up spool, put take-up spool on front spindle, close camera door and run camera until footage counter reads ' 0 '." The film guide release pin is situated above the upper feed roller.

Canon Scoopic 16 MS Camera. Verne and Sylvia Carlson: Professional Cameraman's Handbook: "To thread: 1. Bring film end down to cutter at bottom of camera, insert in blade, engage film perforation on pin, and cut film by depressing cutter. Remove cut-off piece and discard. 2. Insert film end into feed sprocket. Push camera Start Button. Film will automatically: enter feed sprocket, follow top loop-former, enter gate, follow lower loop-former, enter Inching Knob sprocket, be deflected downward over the guide roller. Allow an additional 45―61 cm (18―24 in) to feed through before stopping camera. 3. Loop film under accessory take-up roller. Bring film end up and insert into adapter throat until perforations engage sprocket; rotate Take-up Knob on adapter until film enters take-up side of magazine. 4. Roll film on core clockwise. Place lid on take-up side of magazine. 5. Depress Loop-former Release Pin (above feed sprocket). Apply power in short bursts and observe action of film. If satisfactory, stop camera, reset footage counter on adapter, and close door."
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