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JANNRD business 101 or how a 17500k cam is really 28k


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#1 Michael Peploe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 11:10 AM

Having just spent some time with a bunch of red one owners who are really pissed off I felt I should write what i heard because you can't voice your opinion on reduser as Jarred "I'm gonna unload a can of whoopass on you " Land has a fascistic approach to naysayers.

This is in regards to the Nov announcements and the announcements made Dec. 3.

When the Nov. announcements were made some REd one owners were pissed because they felt their cameras became obsolete. The scarlets were better than the red one and they were cheaper. Jannard replied that the red one still was better than the scarlets because of speed ramping, time lapse, and more shooting resolutions. This helped these red one owners a bit.

With yesterdays announcement the scarlets can now do speed ramping and time lapse and have better recording compression and are cheaper than the red ones. Jannard with yesterdays announcement has put the nail in the coffin of the red one. What he said about how the red one still had more and better features than the scarlet, he, in less than 2 weeks has totally reversed himself by adding those red one features to the scarlet.. And the reason he feels he can reverse himself is because hes giving RED one owners a battery, recording and i.o module. Only if you spend $10500 minimum more. Genius

Fear not he's giving you (ha ha) a special Epic with several modules for $28,000 with full trade in value of $17500 for RED one owners only.

So in less than a year this non obsolete camera has become obsolete and the only way you can make it non obsolete again is to drop another $10.500.

With yesterdays announcement with the added features of the scarlet Jannard has forced the hands of red one owners who had an eye on renting their redones for a long while. yesterdays announcement makes the red one more costly than the scarlets and less performing than the scarlets and the only way to fix this if you're an owner is to drop more money. Before yesterdays announcement the red one still had features that differentiated it from the scarlets, not anymore.

So less than a year ago a bunch of people got excited about a camera that cost $17500 and it suddenly emerged to really be a $28,000 camera MINIMUM.

Jannard is a genius at getting money out of your pocket and having you thank him for it. Yesterdays announcement was a brilliant act of marketing. Some REd one owners think yesterdays announcement is a better deal. The only thing it did was really make the red one an obsolete camera forcing you to either spend more money or just get out of the game.


The only people this deal benefits are people with alot of cash in this economy and early red one owners with a low number as they can sell their red ones to someone who wants an epic fast as Red one owners are first to get epics and really fast if you have a low number red one.

Those people without extra money just got a big surprise.
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#2 Michael Peploe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 11:25 AM

Made a mistake . Some of the scarlets can't do speed ramping but there are still more features in the scarlet that were added that still make it better than the red one.
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#3 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 11:29 AM

Ouch :)

Most of us RED owners, know basic math... Even when we ordered our 1st R1.
RED, like any other company I have seen, has a price for the body + very neccesary, but "up to you to choose" accesories.

If you (like me) had an HD-SDI display of sorts when ordering the RED, you COULD be up and running for about 20k.
Not an ideal setup, and definitely not for rentals, but you could shoot.

I won't comment on sticks+head, optics, FF, mattebox and glass, as those are constants for any camera in this segment, be it film or digital...

THEN
I have to agree that the Obsolete thing is a bad slogan, but still no surprises here.
ANYONE who have followed the computer-based digital industry knows that that is not true. Ever.
BUT I cannot really see the big rage in REDs case.

1. R1 is here today, and probably will be the cam of choice for another 9 months... If you haven't managed to get your ROI within then, you probably didn't run your numbers in advance. Can't really blame JJ for that... :)
2. We HAVE an upgrade path for the sensor - as promised, and basically how I understood the "obsolete" slogan.
3. The R1 images are no worse today than yesterday.
4. Have any of your friends tried to spec up an F35 to a usefull state lately? Have the F35 become obsolete?

What I can see, is why people are generally not so happy @ not seing a Monstro S35 option for Epic. But really, the ofer to upgrade the R1 is both generous and nicely priced.
I think they might change their opinion on the Monstro/Epic/S 35 thing, eventually. It only makes sense, and so far RED has been very good at doing sensible things.

In my opinion, they should skip the "X" sensor on the Epics, and leave the X-sensor for Scarlet and R1 upgrades. But that's just me, and it doesn't piss me off. It's just a matter of opinion that I and other "early adoptors" have aired freely over at Reduser ... :)

But what I really cannot see, is why a better camera renders a current fully working and deliverable one obsolete. Maybe it's a matter of sematics. I dunno...
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#4 Gary McClurg

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:00 PM

If you haven't managed to get your ROI within then, you probably didn't run your numbers in advance. Can't really blame JJ for that... :)


Yes the old saying buyer beware...

I wonder how many R1 owners have recouped their costs...

I just wonder once the Scarlet is out and when the orders are filled... guess what we have a new camera... the Rhett... and then both the Scarlet, R1 and Epic will be Gone with the Wind.... yeah I know its an old joke... but it really applies...

But could it backfire this JJ plan... because the people I know who really talk about the Red are not making a living making movies... they're the guy next door who dreams of doing so... and there is nothing wrong in that... but you might destory your fan base that way... just a thought...

Should I add a disclaimer... I'm not pro or con on the Red... I just think its another tool...
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#5 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:32 PM

To be honest it's difficult to feel much sympathy for red camera owners, most of whom are hyperexcitable morons who hang their psychological wellbeing on every word Jannard utters in a pathetic display of neediness, and who couldn't tell overwrought advertising copy from a wet flounder.

That said: these above and many more reasons are why we do not do business with Jannard.

P
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#6 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:38 PM

I wonder how many R1 owners have recouped their costs...

But could it backfire this JJ plan... because the people I know who really talk about the Red are not making a living making movies... they're the guy next door who dreams of doing so... and there is nothing wrong in that... but you might destory your fan base that way... just a thought...


The ones I know, did it rather quickly. But there are different user bases. The ones not already working in the industry, would have a hard time, for sure - no matter what camera they bought.

As to "the others"... Yes. If you're ONLY an equipment/spec-sheet geek, I can see your point, but if you actually have some use for the cam, I cannot really see why a "better" cam next year helps you a lot today. R1 is here today - even available for immediate delivery :) - and it is doing a great job for quite a few, and definitely will for a while...

My perspective on the RED complainers, is that I seriously tried to finance a Varicam some years ago, and found out it wouldn't geneate a good ROI around here. The price of THAT package would have been around 250k US$.

28k$... :)
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#7 Michael Peploe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 03:51 PM

The ones I know, did it rather quickly. But there are different user bases. The ones not already working in the industry, would have a hard time, for sure - no matter what camera they bought.

As to "the others"... Yes. If you're ONLY an equipment/spec-sheet geek, I can see your point, but if you actually have some use for the cam, I cannot really see why a "better" cam next year helps you a lot today. R1 is here today - even available for immediate delivery :) - and it is doing a great job for quite a few, and definitely will for a while...

My perspective on the RED complainers, is that I seriously tried to finance a Varicam some years ago, and found out it wouldn't geneate a good ROI around here. The price of THAT package would have been around 250k US$.

28k$... :)



Listen by the time jannard is through with you, you'll be getting closer and closer to that 250k number. People have quoted $80K for a decent working red one kit with a one minute boot up time. The epic with all the necessary add ons will be even more and if you want to change brains you'll be at 250k very easily. Just the recording media costs alone for 6k and up will be pricey. Even those scarlet fanboys just see $3750 for a complete kit. But recording media for 3k will bump it up considerably. Its P2 cards all over again for them. Approx. 6 minutes at 3k on one $200 8gb card at redcode 42.
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#8 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 03:57 PM

Listen by the time jannard is through with you, you'll be getting closer and closer to that 250k number. People have quoted $80K for a decent working red one kit with a one minute boot up time. The epic with all the necessary add ons will be even more and if you want to change brains you'll be at 250k very easily. Just the recording media costs alone for 6k and up will be pricey. Even those scarlet fanboys just see $3750 for a complete kit. But recording media for 3k will bump it up considerably. Its P2 cards all over again for them. Approx. 6 minutes at 3k on one $200 8gb card at redcode 42.


Thanks for your concern :)

For the R1 I have been buying Lexars @ under 100$ a puff inc VAT since this summer, I don't think even RED takes 199 anymore (but I haven't checked lately).
But if your predictment becomes true, it will be the same Jannard who has enabled me to buy all that gear, so I guess I can live with that :)
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#9 Michael Peploe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 04:56 PM

Thanks for your concern :)

For the R1 I have been buying Lexars @ under 100$ a puff inc VAT since this summer, I don't think even RED takes 199 anymore (but I haven't checked lately).
But if your predictment becomes true, it will be the same Jannard who has enabled me to buy all that gear, so I guess I can live with that :)


You don't know for sure if those lexars will work for the yet unreleased redcode 42, 225, 250, and 500. You don't know what the new brains require for storage of varying frame rates. You may be buying a whole new set of storage.
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#10 Michael Peploe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:00 PM

$165.00 for 8gb CF

$550 for 16gb CF


Thats red prices and recording times being so short you'll need a bunch.
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#11 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:00 PM

You don't know for sure if those lexars will work for the yet unreleased redcode 42, 225, 250, and 500. You don't know what the new brains require for storage of varying frame rates. You may be buying a whole new set of storage.


Yup. That's right. Likely to certainly even. But they work great on the R1.
And I may even keep my R1 for a while even if I go with Epic.
As for disks in RAID-0... They shouldn't be used for too long anyway.
Only one thing is certain about diks. They will break. In RAID-0, that will happen 4 times as often

So you're right.

And the point is?
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#12 Paul Bruening

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:13 PM

I guess I don't feel as lame for going 2-perf as I did a short while ago.
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#13 Michael Peploe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:02 PM

Ouch :)


What I can see, is why people are generally not so happy @ not seing a Monstro S35 option for Epic. But really, the ofer to upgrade the R1 is both generous and nicely priced.
I think they might change their opinion on the Monstro/Epic/S 35 thing, eventually. It only makes sense, and so far RED has been very good at doing sensible things.

In my opinion, they should skip the "X" sensor on the Epics, and leave the X-sensor for Scarlet and R1 upgrades. But that's just me, and it doesn't piss me off. It's just a matter of opinion that I and other "early adoptors" have aired freely over at Reduser ... :)


By the way i read the posts on REduser by someone with the same feelings regarding the upgrade path from X to monstro. The fact that it was a $33k upgrade path troubled him. And you know what happened he got crucified and called a retard by posters (Their words not mine), for not genuflecting enough for the new announcements. Posters it seems JaREd "whoopass" LAnd seemed to know personally. Great way to deal with an owners fear generated by a quickly disappearing in front of his eyes non obsolete camera.
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#14 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:28 PM

Just curious. Do you use the R1?
In case: What makes it obsolete as of yesterday?

It's fun. Some (not you) loudly claim (and i guess rightly so) that their F900 still make them more money than their REDs.
So... 5 (or is it 6) years on, the F900 is still not obsolete (for its uses).

Some think the R1 can make better images than the F900.
That still doesn't make the F900 obsolete. And there are still many more F900s out there than R1s (I guess)

If I predict that in 5 years, there will be better 4-perf digital cams out there than the Epic FF, would that stop you from buying a cam next year if you needed it?

I haven't been attacked for airing my opinions on the monstro/epic S35, but according to you, I just may have been lucky...
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#15 Tom Lowe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:52 PM

Hey Michael Peploe, tell your alleged R1 owner friends they are a bunch of f#cking crybabies.

Is Canon offering 5D owners $2,300 toward a 5D Mark II?

Is Sony offering F900 owners a chance to upgrade their sensor? No. There are no upgrades.

Current R1 owners can either keep their camera and keep shooting great images, they can kick in 5 grand and have their sensor upgraded, or they can sell their R1 for around $16K to those who want to trade it in toward an Epic, or they cash it in for $17.5K toward an Epic of their own... This type of generosity of unheard of in any type of electronics.

How this amounts to R1 owners feeling "screwed" is beyond ALL comprehension. What a total joke.
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#16 Neil Duffy

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 07:41 PM

To be honest it's difficult to feel much sympathy for red camera owners, most of whom are hyperexcitable morons who hang their psychological wellbeing on every word Jannard utters in a pathetic display of neediness, and who couldn't tell overwrought advertising copy from a wet flounder.

P


I know who to go to when I need some empathy. :lol:
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#17 Michael Peploe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 08:35 PM

Hey Michael Peploe, tell your alleged R1 owner friends they are a bunch of f#cking crybabies.


I can certainly send them this and you can tell them yourself.
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#18 DJ Joofa

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 08:59 PM

To be honest it's difficult to feel much sympathy for red camera owners, most of whom are hyperexcitable morons who hang their psychological wellbeing on every word Jannard utters in a pathetic display of neediness, and who couldn't tell overwrought advertising copy from a wet flounder.

That said: these above and many more reasons are why we do not do business with Jannard.

P


Shouldn't then you at least learn from Jim Jannard the art of how to "hypnotize" people so much so that even when they know the product is flawed they are still rooting for it. I think it is not easy to have that ability. What is he doing?

BTW, what should be qualification of a person who can assess Red appropriately?
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#19 Tom Lowe

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 11:26 PM

I can certainly send them this and you can tell them yourself.


I'd be happy to.
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#20 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 01:11 AM

As my dad said a long time ago, fight nice.
Seriously, I can see why some people would feel a little burned/bummed that their shiny new 4K camera is now. . . well a 4K camera in a increasing K world. I think the biggest issue here is the time. It seems yesterday that red came out, and people went with them perhaps being "used" to the life cycle of other cameras which had a replacement - developed generally quietly - a few years 'round the corner. With Red, we had it public and while that's great, it is also disheartening, I'm sure, to be reading about how the 17500+ body you just bought is going by the wayside of technology. A lot of people don't realize that it doesn't matter, really. As mentioned, Beta has been out-done for awhile now, but those cameras are still making people money. Just as the HVX is still a rented camera despite perhaps "better" offerings from others.
Now what Red is doing in terms of refund is quite admirable, almost like "trading in" a car but without depreciation. Seriously, though, who else is going to give you full price for used equipment? For that, I have to give them credit. Of course I also have to say that while it's wonderful to be revolutionary and open perhaps a degree of temperance is needed on the side of Red. Not too much as to kill their own creativity, but enough so that the new systems they do bring to light are mature and not as fluid and uncertain as some of their recent offerings have seemed. That's my opinion, like all of this is, and I am no way saying RED should abandon listening to their customer base and sharing information with the market at large-- rather that the might be slightly better off not announcing on Nov 13 one set of spec, and then on Dec 3 changing them (granted for the better, but c'mon, at least keep it a month or two apart! again, opinion only!)
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