Jump to content


Photo

Telecine with ot without timecode


  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 Patrick Barry

Patrick Barry
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Director
  • Jacksonville, FL

Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:40 AM

Hello all,

We're looking to start shooting a feature soon, on Super 16mm. I've done a few shorts on film before but always telecined to tape as the final output.

On this project, I'm trying to get the best of both worlds. I'm not sure if we'll have the budget to go back to a film print unless the film is picked up. So my thought was to telecine in HD to a harddrive this time so at least we could sell the tv/dvd rights if we didn't get theatrical distribution. If, lo and behold, the film were picked up for distribution, and we didn't have an edit with timecodes burnt in, wouldn't we have to go back and re-edit? Do people even use the timecodes anymore or is it all EDL? Sorry if I sound like a novice but I need to understand how this works.

I know FCP exports the EDL, but can that work without timecode on the picture?

Also, is an HD cut of a film good enough to scan back to a film print?

Thanks in advance for the replies,
  • 0

#2 Chris Burke

Chris Burke
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1675 posts
  • Boston, MA

Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:24 AM

Hello all,

We're looking to start shooting a feature soon, on Super 16mm. I've done a few shorts on film before but always telecined to tape as the final output.

On this project, I'm trying to get the best of both worlds. I'm not sure if we'll have the budget to go back to a film print unless the film is picked up. So my thought was to telecine in HD to a harddrive this time so at least we could sell the tv/dvd rights if we didn't get theatrical distribution. If, lo and behold, the film were picked up for distribution, and we didn't have an edit with timecodes burnt in, wouldn't we have to go back and re-edit? Do people even use the timecodes anymore or is it all EDL? Sorry if I sound like a novice but I need to understand how this works.

I know FCP exports the EDL, but can that work without timecode on the picture?

Also, is an HD cut of a film good enough to scan back to a film print?

Thanks in advance for the replies,


Definitely use the keycode and timecode to generate your edl, no matter what format you transfer to. Transfering to hard drive is optimal for short films, but less so for features because of the amount of footage. If you do your tk to HD uncompressed, it will use up lots and lots of hard drive space and that is something to content with. On the other hand, if you were to transfer everything to say HDcam SR, the tape cost and deck rental costs alone could outweigh the benefits of going that route. You might want to look into the direct to drive route, but take into account the data management and back up needs that have to be addressed. As I said, every project is different with different needs, so ask your lab what is best for your project. I tend to lean toward the hard drive route, getting the best quality scanned from the start. Look into using a codec like Cineform. Apple ProRes HQ is great for your edit, but Cineform is even better.
  • 0

#3 Patrick Barry

Patrick Barry
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Director
  • Jacksonville, FL

Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:35 AM

Thanks Chris. When you refer to keycode and timecode...timecode is what is actually burnt in at the bottom of the screen, correct?

If you have an HD cut of a 16mm film, does anyone ever scan back to a film print? Or is that not really done for 16mm in that way? thanks!
  • 0

#4 Chris Burke

Chris Burke
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1675 posts
  • Boston, MA

Posted 11 December 2008 - 11:38 PM

Thanks Chris. When you refer to keycode and timecode...timecode is what is actually burnt in at the bottom of the screen, correct?

If you have an HD cut of a 16mm film, does anyone ever scan back to a film print? Or is that not really done for 16mm in that way? thanks!


the burn it contains both the keycode and the timecode. Yes, hd burned back out to film from 16mm can be done and is done all the time.
  • 0

#5 tylerhawes

tylerhawes
  • Guests

Posted 15 December 2008 - 01:43 PM

Timecode is embedded in the metadata of the media files. It can also be burnt-in to the image, but that is usually done as a precaution so you have a visual reference to fall back on in case the metadata fails you or for troubleshooting purposes. However, keycode is what they will use for getting selects off the film. The bottom line is you'll need to setup a database in CinemaTools (if using FCP) or FilmScribe (Avid) to track the timecode/keycode relationship in case you have to go back and rescan later.

If you transfer to HD 4:4:4 RGB 10-bit log on HDCAM-SR or data files, that can give an excellent film out and is something we do all the time for low-budget films. I recommend you price out the difference between an HDCAM-SR workflow and a data workflow and go with whichever you can better afford. Keep in mind that if you go data to hard drives, you have to assume the drives will fail and have a viable backup strategy, such as LTO tapes.

Normally what we do is transfer to data, convert to compressed HD for the editor, then archive the data clips on LTO. Later we can recover selects from the data and conform/color the film. Otherwise we transfer to HDCAM-SR and ingest to compressed HD for editor, then reconform from the tape. Either way, it's all 10-bit log RGB 4:4:4 1080p if going this telecine workflow route. It looks very good and I haven't found a DP or Director yet who felt unsatisfied with this result.
  • 0

#6 Patrick Barry

Patrick Barry
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Director
  • Jacksonville, FL

Posted 15 December 2008 - 06:05 PM

Thanks for the post Tyler.

So would it be possible to telecine to DVCPro, for example, and the timecode/keycode would be in the metadata? From a FCP edit, you could return to recut a film print if needs be.

Also, whats the correlation with CinemaTools?

thanks,
  • 0

#7 tylerhawes

tylerhawes
  • Guests

Posted 15 December 2008 - 07:21 PM

It sounds like this is your first time editing a project shot on film that might need to reconform from film. There's a lot of information out there on how to do this, but if you're using Final Cut Pro I recommend reading the relevant sections of the Cinema Tools and Final Cut manuals as a good start.

In short, keycode is on the film, but the video clips have timecode. The telecine will put timecode on the tapes or in the files, which is what Avid/FCP understand natively. The telecine will also provide "flex files", which are essentially lookup tables correlating the video timecode to the film's keycode. Cinema Tools / Film Scribe will create a database relationship between your media's timecode and the film's keycode and keep track of this through your edit. When you are done editing and make an EDL, they will create a selects list that includes the relevant keycode so you can rescan selects.

Even if you're not planning to rescan, it's a good idea to build the database just in case.

The workflow I was talking about you wouldn't really use the keycode or Cinema Tools / Film Scribe, since you'd be doing a normal timecode conform from tape or files on disk anyway.
  • 0

#8 Patrick Barry

Patrick Barry
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Director
  • Jacksonville, FL

Posted 15 December 2008 - 08:13 PM

Thank you Tyler. I appreciate you explaining that to me. It would be my first time "back to film." Scanning/telecining everything we shoot in HD might be cost prohibitive. We're looking at the most cost effective option and re scanning after the edit like a pretty good option.
  • 0


Willys Widgets

Glidecam

Abel Cine

Opal

Visual Products

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineLab

Aerial Filmworks

Technodolly

Paralinx LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Wooden Camera

CineTape

Tai Audio

Ritter Battery

FJS International, LLC

The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Metropolis Post

rebotnix Technologies

Visual Products

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape

FJS International, LLC

CineLab

Metropolis Post

rebotnix Technologies

Wooden Camera

The Slider

Ritter Battery

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Glidecam

Tai Audio

Opal

Paralinx LLC

Aerial Filmworks

Willys Widgets

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Rig Wheels Passport

Technodolly