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Shooting RED for film projection in India


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#1 F Bulgarelli

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 08:57 PM

Hello,

There is a possibility of shooting a movie on the RED for eventual film projection in India and the States.
India is PAL, USA is NTSC
Should we shoot 24fps or 25fps?

What would be the eventual post production workflow for film and dvd releases.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,

Regards,

Francisco
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#2 Daniel Sheehy

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 02:31 AM

...eventual film projection...

24fps

DVD release shouldn't be a problem.

Edited by Daniel Sheehy, 09 February 2009 - 02:32 AM.

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#3 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 11:34 AM

24fps

DVD release shouldn't be a problem.


The reasons not to shoot 24fps would be if your post people would have problems, or you are shooting so much material that locking onto 50 Hz is important to the production.

The post problem would arise if you're working mostly with TV post houses that are totally geared up for 25fps.
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#4 Chris Durham

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 12:31 PM

The Red runs pretty hot. Be careful with it in the Indian heat.
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#5 F Bulgarelli

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 01:42 PM

The reasons not to shoot 24fps would be if your post people would have problems, or you are shooting so much material that locking onto 50 Hz is important to the production.

The post problem would arise if you're working mostly with TV post houses that are totally geared up for 25fps.


The post production will be done in India, in that sense, would it make more sense to shoot 25fps?
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#6 John Sprung

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 02:14 PM

The post production will be done in India, in that sense, would it make more sense to shoot 25fps?


Best to ask the post facility you'll be using if they have any preference. Better yet, run a test of your proposed workflow with them asap.

Most features and major network TV here in the U.S. shoots at 24 (actually 23.976 for compatibility with an NTSC video village). TV shows post end to end in 1080p/24, archive 1080p/24, and downconvert from those masters to 1080i/60 or 720p/60 for their network delivery. The PAL/SECAM markets run their downconversions frame for frame, 4% fast. That produces the smoothest motion for those markets, and gets them a little more commercial time. Only a few very rare individuals can tell the difference between 24 and 25 fps (I know one editor who can).

BTW, on this forum there's a folder called "Cameras and Formats" which has a subfolder called "HD" in which there's a "Red" subfolder. Ideally, this discussion belongs there. You may find a lot of useful real world experience with the Red there, and in David Mullen's posts in the "In Production" folder about his Red features.




-- J.S.
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#7 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 03:13 PM

In my experience, it has always been easier to drop a frame in post than adding one, or speeding the footage up. But doing tests and all of that is the sensible thing to do.
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#8 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 04:34 PM

If you're doing a film out, I'd imagine shooting 24fps would be the logical thing to do. If you need to convert to PAL for TV or DVD at some point, it's not a problem. Whatever post house you use, they should be able to take care of it for you.

But since you're first thought is getting a film out, then definitely shoot at 24.
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#9 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 05:25 PM

If you're doing a film out, I'd imagine shooting 24fps would be the logical thing to do. If you need to convert to PAL for TV or DVD at some point, it's not a problem. Whatever post house you use, they should be able to take care of it for you.

But since you're first thought is getting a film out, then definitely shoot at 24.


In PAL land 24 fps can cause problems or at least perceived problems. A sound guy told me about a low budget film being shot at 24 fps, but the sound time code was 25fps and the German post house was having problems syncing the sound. I suspect they're basically a TV facility rather than a film one, so never use 24 fps.

Best talk it through in advance, so you don't get those surprise phone calls. For theatrical release 24 fps is the norm.
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#10 John Sprung

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 06:14 PM

A sound guy told me about a low budget film being shot at 24 fps, but the sound time code was 25fps and the German post house was having problems syncing the sound.


Yes, that combination is a mistake. (The sound guy should have known that.) If you're going to shoot picture at 24.00/23.976, your sound needs to run at 30.00/29.97. It's also important that both be either "point zero zero" or "point nine something". The other way to go is both picture and sound at 25.00.

If your concern is matching the power that runs your lights, the answer is 24 in the 60 Hz. countries, and 25 in the 50 Hz. countries.





-- J.S.
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#11 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 06:38 PM

Yes, that combination is a mistake. (The sound guy should have known that.) If you're going to shoot picture at 24.00/23.976, your sound needs to run at 30.00/29.97. It's also important that both be either "point zero zero" or "point nine something". The other way to go is both picture and sound at 25.00.

If your concern is matching the power that runs your lights, the answer is 24 in the 60 Hz. countries, and 25 in the 50 Hz. countries.

-- J.S.


From what I gather they're syncing with slates with I assume Super 16 film. Other than that, I know no more than a second hand story about a film currently in production.

A short film I directed a few years ago, was shot at 24fps to be edited on an AVID, but the facility didn't have the key to use 24 fps. They had cut a 24fps film the previous year for my producer and he assumed (always dangerous) that it was a permanent feature. In fact, AVID had given them a 24 fps key (as a favour) just for the other short and if the facility wished to use another key, they'd have to pay a few thousand pounds.

In the end, they did the 4% speed change on the sound to sync it up.
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#12 F Bulgarelli

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 02:23 AM

Thank you guys, this is very useful.
So far it looks like the best option is to shot 24fps here and 25fps there.
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