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400ft magazine+SLR camera, possible? (for stop motion)


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#1 Fred Neilsen

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 04:43 AM

Hi Guys

This is my 4th post

So far this great community of cinematographers, grips, gaffers, camera men and women, 1st and 2dn acs, students...... have helped me buy a follow focus for a bolex, lubricate my bolex, and fix it's viewfinder.

Anyway, I think it's time to make the great leep (from digital to 16mm and from 16mm to 35mm), I'v got a stop motion animated project (15 min with a 3-1 shooting ratio) with a large enough budget to shoot 35mm I cant afford to rent a "vista vision" camera however so I have to make one.

So what I want to do is attach my old mitchell 35mm mag to a 35mm SLR camera, with maybe a light tight steel box in between for the film to have a bit of slack so that nothing gets caught up. I did a test with a mag, some old film, a card board box, some sewing spools and a consumer olympus non reflex camera. It worked quite well.

I am trying to use all of the camera's original mechanics, and simply slit two holes in each side of the SLR and run the film from the mag through those holes.

Anyway, my question is, how do you think I should do this, and is it worth doing, and is it possible?

Note that I only need single frame capture

Thank you for any help







ps: here is a diagram (this is why i am studying cinematography and not graphics design...)

Slide1.jpg

Fred
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#2 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 05:00 AM

Industrial Light & Magic used a modified 35mm SLR for the mine railway/roller-coaster sequence in "Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom". From memory it took quite a bit of work to sort out the registration and the tension for the small purpose made magazine they made for the camera.

It would be worthwhile trying to get a copy of the Cinefex issue that covered making the film's special effects. That goes into quite a bit of detail telling how they overcame the problems with the modified SLR.

http://www.cinefex.c...es/issue18.html
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#3 Fred Neilsen

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 05:24 AM

Thank you so much for such a quick reply. I'll have to check out the article.

Tension was a big problem in the prototype I made, I guess I'll have to experiment a little.
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#4 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:32 AM

Hi Guys

This is my 4th post

So what I want to do is attach my old mitchell 35mm mag to a 35mm SLR camera, with maybe a light tight steel box in between for the film to have a bit of slack so that nothing gets caught up. I did a test with a mag, some old film, a card board box, some sewing spools and a consumer olympus non reflex camera. It worked quite well.


Do not need invent of bicycle.

You can take of Nikon SLR photo camera with additional, long roll,magazine.
The matter is that, the 35 mm SLR photo camera with cine cameras do notwork, because, you will need turn of rolls inside magazine.
The power of 35 mm cine cameras can be low for run of film inside of cine magazine.

or, to choose of special cine cameras for single shooting.
I know russian RFK-5 cine camera for single shooting.
If you wish know more about RFK-5 can ask me.
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#5 Fred Neilsen

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 02:45 PM

Thank you for your reply

I guess I was making it a bit complicated

I'll have to check out the nikon, do you know how much do they cost with the mag, also, how many frames can they take?

I'd also like to know more about the Rusian camera, how much they cost, and when where they made, (I've herd that some russian cameras used different perferations, is this true?)

Can the rusian camera be converted to 2perf? (though I know that if I shoot SLR, I'd probably be shooting 6-8 perf...)

Thank you again

Fred
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#6 K Borowski

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 04:04 PM

I agree with Olex. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

Forget what model camera it was, but older SLRs come with 100 foot/30.48m (750 exp.) magazines. I don't think any of the newer ones have this capability.

Don't think any of the SLRs that have long-length capability can shoot anything other than 8-perf. though, so the tradeoff to the small size is Vistavision. Let's face it, that probably isn't necessary.

I mean, if you were griping about quality and comparing film with digital, sure I'd go with 8-perf. to be fair, but for a short film I think you would be better off renting an old cine cam with single frame features and shooting either '01 or '12.

I saw a still photo study done once that showed that a 1 2/3 stop speed difference is about comparable, all other things being equal, to doubling the film area.

So shooting 100-200 speed stock would be as fine-grained at 4-perf. as Vistavision on '60 or '19.

Really, I would lok at the cost of buying and using an old still camera as opposed to that of renting a 35mm animation camera.

One final thing to worry about: the framing stability with an SLR.
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#7 Fred Neilsen

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 01:11 AM

Thank you Karl

Yup, I don't think I'll reinvent the wheel, I did not factor in image stability (I had some dilusional thought that an SLR had superior image stability) so I guess I'll just buy a 35mm film camera (with single frame) and then sell it again after the project is over (cheaper I think than renting for 1 month, even with a 2 day week)

Thank you again
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#8 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 05:02 AM

Thank you for your reply

I guess I was making it a bit complicated

I'll have to check out the nikon, do you know how much do they cost with the mag, also, how many frames can they take?

I'd also like to know more about the Rusian camera, how much they cost, and when where they made, (I've herd that some russian cameras used different perferations, is this true?)

Can the rusian camera be converted to 2perf? (though I know that if I shoot SLR, I'd probably be shooting 6-8 perf...)

Thank you again

Fred


I think, we must think aboutthisproblme from other side.
What kinds of footages you wish have at finish ? Single shoots or cine footages ( Time lapse ) .
The matteris that, the any photo camera do not have of system, for stabilization of position of every picture on film.
That's why, if you take of 100 ft roll from photo camera you will have twitch images.
As for cine cameras. The special cine cameras from animation stand have registration pins and every frame adjust at position by registration pins.
That's why, the footages from cine cameras have high stability +/- 0.01 mm, high precision cameras +/- 0.008 mm.

That's why, you must have main answer, you need time lapse footages or many photos from photo camera.

About russian cine cameras.
This can be cine cameras for movie shooting with speed 24/25 fps, high speed cameras with speeds up to 150 fps, Time lapse cameras (animation stand cameras ) and photorecorder-type cine cameras.

The photorecorder camera ( RFK-5) - design between cine camera and photo camera.
The body have design of cine camera, have film magazine, shutter disk, but, this is camera use for time lapse shooting. For shooting with long interval between shots.
RFK-5 have shutter disk at film plane, do not have reflection mirror shutter.
RFK-5 can have 60 m and 120 m film magazine.

About perforation of russian cine cameras.
Yes, the all russian sine camera build for 35 mm film with KS perforation, but, if the russian camera do not have of registration pin ( like Konvas ), Kodak film with BH perforation can be use without any problme and without any modification.
The russian cine cameras with registration pin must be conver for BH perforation.

But, we have long rolls film stock of photo films with KS perforation and this film can be use at russian cine cameras without any problem.

That's why,need study of all sides of idea.
The price of russian cine cameras can be from $250...., may be less.

About upgrade on 2 perforation, need stude of detailed of every model of camera.
yes, Konvas, Kinor upgrade on 2, 3 peforation now.
But, i must underline, the any modifictaion of mechanism of camera - high precision of metal-working and will ask of big money.
That's why, need compare of savings on costs on film with price of upgrade.

6-8 perforation. We do not have of russian cine cameras with 6..8 perforation.
I can think about upgrade of russian 70 mm cine cameras for 35 mm cine films and you will have image with big square.

Any case, at first must be cshow of hief task.

We have of electrponic microprocessor based conrtollers with crystal sync speed and time lapse function.
This is controllers can be use for build of special cine shoot systems.

You can send me letters on my personal email olex.camera@gmail.com
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#9 Fred Neilsen

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 02:44 PM

Thank you Olex

That was an amazing amount of information, It cleared up allot of questions I had in my head, I think I'll go with a russian camera, (I didn't reallise they where so in-expencive!!!!)

Does the Konvas have a steady image if it doesn't have registration pins? (I know that my stop-mo with a bolex is quite stable, but that's 16mm)

Thank you again,

Fred
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