Jump to content


Photo

Help with lighting a daylight lit interior scene?


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 Susan May

Susan May

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Student

Posted 19 February 2009 - 04:09 PM

After not shooting on film for a few years I will in a few weeks be shooting a S16mm student film with a very small budget. Most of the shooting takes place out doors with only one interior scene. That interior scene will consist of various shots of a group of singers. The space we are in is quite a large hall but we will only be using a small portion of the space and we do not require to light the space beyond our little section of about 10ft by 10ft, we will expose for the singers and have the back ground dark. We will be filming this scene in the early evening until after dark however after dark however we want the film to appear as though the film is shot in natural daylight (also we are shooting on 500 Daylight film stock) and the director want the interior shoots to flow together with the outdoor shots as much as possible as both scenes will be intercut.

I had been thinking to shoot using an HMI however I have not used these lights before and am unsure as to what size I would need. To light the space I have as well as about 6 or so people. We are filming in the UK so I am assuming that it will be cloudy on the day and so to ensure that the indoor and outdoor shots match up I’d like the light source to be bright but soft, but not completely without contrast. The light source will be situated to the rear left of the camera and at about 8 ft from the subjects and about 6ft + off the ground.

Do you have any recommendation as to what strength of HMI to use in this situation? We would like to avoid having to hire a generator if possible as money is very tight and that would mean having to plug the HMI into a domestic power supply which I suppose would limit us to no more than an HMI of 2KW.

If we did use an HMI of 2KW do you think we would be able to get away with using bounced light to fill or perhaps using a small tungsten light with CTB to create fill?

I spoke to a friend of mine who is a DOP who was very helpful and suggested using spring ball lights to create a soft light for the interior these sound good but again I haven’t used them either although I could go to a hire place to take a look at them and see what they are like. These lights are tungsten balanced so it would mean putting a conversion filter on the camera which I’m not opposed to and perhaps correcting things further in the grading (If we can afford it). However I am worried they might be too soft to simulate daylight.

Thank you to all who have read this and I would be very grateful for any feedback at all on these questions. I have shot on S16mm before and have assisted on various occasions but as these have all been no / low budget films I have very limited experience with lights and mostly have just used redheads and blondes with gels, so don’t really know what to use to get the effect I need. I am also keen to use something different this time so that I can gain experience of different lights.

Many thanks again!
  • 0

#2 Freya Black

Freya Black
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4161 posts
  • Other
  • Went over the edge... Central Europe

Posted 19 February 2009 - 04:27 PM

Could you not use daylight Kinos in this context somewhere or are you worried about the quality of the light from them?

love

Freya
  • 0

#3 Susan May

Susan May

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Student

Posted 19 February 2009 - 05:29 PM

Could you not use daylight Kinos in this context somewhere or are you worried about the quality of the light from them?

love

Freya


Thanks for that advice Freya, I did think about Kinos but like with the other lights I don't really have experiance of them, so I don't really know what effect they will have. I actually just spoke to the director a moment ago and she has changed the scene which will be intercut with the interior scene and wants it to be slightly over exposed so I am thinking that I will need to go for a slightly harder light source, do you think that Kino's would be suitable for this sort of harder light? Also can I draw power for Kino's from a domestic mains or would I need a generator?

It would be so much easier if I could just go into a hire place and have the various lights set up so I could see for myself which would be best. My friend who is a DOP did say that most lighting hire places are quite good about that sort of thing but I actually live in a different city to where we are filming so we would not ultimately be hiring equipment from them for this shoot so I am not sure how amenable they would be to having a novice come in and play with their lights! What do you think?
  • 0

#4 Freya Black

Freya Black
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4161 posts
  • Other
  • Went over the edge... Central Europe

Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:47 PM

Thanks for that advice Freya, I did think about Kinos but like with the other lights I don't really have experiance of them, so I don't really know what effect they will have. I actually just spoke to the director a moment ago and she has changed the scene which will be intercut with the interior scene and wants it to be slightly over exposed so I am thinking that I will need to go for a slightly harder light source, do you think that Kino's would be suitable for this sort of harder light? Also can I draw power for Kino's from a domestic mains or would I need a generator?

It would be so much easier if I could just go into a hire place and have the various lights set up so I could see for myself which would be best. My friend who is a DOP did say that most lighting hire places are quite good about that sort of thing but I actually live in a different city to where we are filming so we would not ultimately be hiring equipment from them for this shoot so I am not sure how amenable they would be to having a novice come in and play with their lights! What do you think?


Hiya Susan,
I was hoping someone more knowledgeable might pipe up with some suggestions as I too am based in the U.K. However...

I'm not very sure what look you are trying to achieve from your description. I wondered if you were trying to simulate light coming through a window and if the window was in shot? Anyway heres what I can tell you about Kinos:

Kino Flo lights are flourecant lights. They can come with tubes that are either tungsten balanced or daylight balanced. They are quite low power lights which is why I mentioned them. They put out a lot of light for the wattage they consume. They are a common resource for people working on low budgets but with daylight colour temps. They are also soft lights and put out diffused light like on a cloudy day. You can of course diffuse them further by bouncing or by projecting the light into diffusion material to create a larger light source.

I'm not sure what you mean about needing a harder light to create a more over exposed look. Do you want to create parts of the image to be overexposed and so to use more focussed light? You can of course overexpose film with soft light too. You could flag off some of the light from the kino's in order to make them a bit more directional but they are basically by their nature soft lights.

I hope that helps a little?
Hopefully someone will drop by who knows their stuff and will give you better and more detailed advice! :)

love

Freya
  • 0

#5 Freya Black

Freya Black
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4161 posts
  • Other
  • Went over the edge... Central Europe

Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:59 PM

Forgot to say that I was once on a shoot where they lit the entire film by blasting huge HMI's through the windows and also Kino Flo's will of course easily run off household mains. :)

love

Freya
  • 0

#6 Susan May

Susan May

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Student

Posted 19 February 2009 - 08:55 PM

Forgot to say that I was once on a shoot where they lit the entire film by blasting huge HMI's through the windows and also Kino Flo's will of course easily run off household mains. :)

love

Freya



Hi Freya, thanks again for your reply. Sorry I know I am being confusing, this is in part because I changed my concept for the shot after a telephone conversation with the director tonight. I have been hunting everywhere for an example of the kind of effect I want. This isn't perfect but it is the best I can do at the moment. Here are some links to some images from La double vie de Véronique:


1. http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

2 . http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

3. http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

The very bright hardish light that falls on her face is the sort of incandescence I want for the figures in the scene (although the faces will not actually be visible so this light will be falling on their bodies from the neck down).

In images 2 & 3 you can see the sort of contrast between the lightness of the subject and the darkness of the background I want in fact I think the back ground will be totally black.

Another point to make is that the this film is shot with a special amber filter and I am wanting a more naturalistic daylight colour temp.

I was thinking a hard key light like an HMI Fresnel (not sure which kw) with perhaps some diffusion if necessary and perhaps a kino flo daylight for fill as I want the hard light but I will be filming on an angle for some shots and I don't want any ugly shadows.

Sorry if I seem inconsistant I hope the images above give a better idea of what I am trying to achive now, any imput will be greatly appreciated.

Kind Regards,

Susan

Edited by Susan May, 19 February 2009 - 08:59 PM.

  • 0

#7 Mike Lary

Mike Lary
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 472 posts
  • Other

Posted 20 February 2009 - 03:21 AM

do you think that Kino's would be suitable for this sort of harder light? Also can I draw power for Kino's from a domestic mains or would I need a generator?

Kino's are soft lights. You cannot make them harder. They will run on household circuits, they are lightweight, and they don't produce much heat. Personally, I avoid them and would never mix them with HMIs. The quality of light they emit is very different from bounced or diffused HMIs.

I'm thinking that when you say you want hard light, you're referring more for it to look hot on the actor's faces, in which case that's dependent on where you set your aperture and not really about the quality of the light. Would that be accurate?

I would use HMI's if at all possible, one large unit for key and a smaller unit that can be walked around for fill. As far as wattage goes, that depends on how heavy your diffusion is going to be, how far the key light will be from the actors, and your target aperture. Testing is best since you can't grow your kit after the shoot starts. I don't know what lights you have at your disposal, but you might be able to download photometric charts from the manufacturer and easily determine your requirements, then factor in light loss for your diffusion of choice.

If you can get access to your location prior to shooting, it would behoove you to look at the fuse box and take readings from the outlets with a voltage meter so you'll know how much your circuits can handle, then pick your lights accordingly.
  • 0

#8 Rich Steel

Rich Steel
  • Sustaining Members
  • 128 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Scotland

Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:53 AM

Mains voltage in the UK is 230v so Watts = 13 (amp) x 230 (volts) = 2990 watts or just under 3kW.

As far as I'm aware there is no such thing as a 2Kw HMi but there is a 2.5Kw, so you could run one of those off a standard 13amp mains ring.

It's not a massive space your trying to light (10ft x 10ft) and it's not clear if you will have any windows in your shot.

If you don't have any windows in shot and you have very little money I'd run with a 1.2 HMi and some open faced units bounced.
  • 0

#9 Salil Sundresh

Salil Sundresh
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 98 posts
  • 2nd Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:35 PM

Hiya Susan,
I was hoping someone more knowledgeable might pipe up with some suggestions as I too am based in the U.K. However...

I'm not very sure what look you are trying to achieve from your description. I wondered if you were trying to simulate light coming through a window and if the window was in shot? Anyway heres what I can tell you about Kinos:

Kino Flo lights are flourecant lights. They can come with tubes that are either tungsten balanced or daylight balanced. They are quite low power lights which is why I mentioned them. They put out a lot of light for the wattage they consume. They are a common resource for people working on low budgets but with daylight colour temps. They are also soft lights and put out diffused light like on a cloudy day. You can of course diffuse them further by bouncing or by projecting the light into diffusion material to create a larger light source.

I'm not sure what you mean about needing a harder light to create a more over exposed look. Do you want to create parts of the image to be overexposed and so to use more focussed light? You can of course overexpose film with soft light too. You could flag off some of the light from the kino's in order to make them a bit more directional but they are basically by their nature soft lights.

I hope that helps a little?
Hopefully someone will drop by who knows their stuff and will give you better and more detailed advice! :)

love

Freya

Try checking with your producer/PM if you can prep or oversee prep of the equipment the day or night before. The guys at the rental houses may be able to answer your questions about actual operation of the Kinos and HMIs. Most of the time they are relatively simple to operate in my experience (especially the newer stuff) so I wouldn't be scared off by it. Just be mindful of the hot re-strike time if you get magnetic ballasts.
As a general rule of thumb, HMI bulbs can put out 4 times as much light as a tungsten bulb. The fixture and lens have a big impact on this though so like Mike mentioned, check the photometric chart.
Based on the stills you've provided, it looks like you are going for a combination of soft fill and hardish sunset like light? Am I right in saying this? What if you throw some diff on the whole fixture to soften it up a little bit and then put a silk half way in front of the fixture to get that spotty hardish light spilling on to the subject? You might also want to get another hmi bounced into some griff to fill in the other side. 1200w's are the largest HMIs made as far as I know that run off a 20 amp circuit.
As for the black background, if you can afford it get some big pieces of duv to throw on some speed rails, you might also need a floppy on the edge of the grif to help control some of the spill.

Edited by Salil Sundresh, 23 February 2009 - 08:38 PM.

  • 0

#10 will griffith

will griffith
  • Guests

Posted 25 February 2009 - 01:59 PM

Take a look at a Kino Flow Vistabeam.
Nearly 6000w equivalent of "hard" light
and only draws 9amps.

By the images you posted it would work
well for the punchy sunlight coming in, and
would work well with some 4banks for fill.

Also uses daylight or tungsten bulbs.

Good luck.
  • 0

#11 victor casasola

victor casasola

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Student
  • Barcelona

Posted 10 March 2009 - 08:54 AM

The quality of light they emit is very different from bounced or diffused HMIs.


I am getting ready a shooting in S16 and I was thinking on mixing HMIs coming through the windows from the outside and Kinos in the interior (most of the scenes are interiors, daylight); can you explain further why is different the quality of both?
Thanks
  • 0

#12 Mike Lary

Mike Lary
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 472 posts
  • Other

Posted 10 March 2009 - 11:23 AM

I am getting ready a shooting in S16 and I was thinking on mixing HMIs coming through the windows from the outside and Kinos in the interior (most of the scenes are interiors, daylight); can you explain further why is different the quality of both?
Thanks

You should do some testing first, so you can see the difference. If you softened up a 1.2K HMI (by throwing it through diffusion or by bouncing), the falloff would be different from that of a kino. The HMI light would wrap evenly around the subject very much the way diffuse sunlight would. The kino light would create more of a hard 'band' of light on the subject and wrap to a lesser degree. A smaller HMI unit inside would create a better match to the 1.2K source, and it would be much more versatile than the kino.
  • 0


rebotnix Technologies

CineTape

FJS International, LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Glidecam

Aerial Filmworks

Ritter Battery

Opal

Willys Widgets

Abel Cine

Technodolly

Paralinx LLC

Wooden Camera

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Metropolis Post

CineLab

Tai Audio

Rig Wheels Passport

Visual Products

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Aerial Filmworks

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

FJS International, LLC

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Opal

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Wooden Camera

The Slider

Glidecam

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

CineTape

Metropolis Post

Abel Cine

CineLab