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24p camera under 5k?


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#1 David Ghast

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:43 PM

Im looking to shoot with a stereoscopic setup and i have 10k to spend on two digital cameras and equipment needed to sync them. Im wanting to shoot the whole production in 24p (p as in true progressive, no in camera deinterlacing tricks) but i also need the capability to film a scene in slo-mo (think rap video slo-mo), can i achieve this in post with just 24p, or do i need to shoot in a higher framerate? What framerates do rap videos usually shoot in to get that effect? Does shooting interlaced help produce those smooth temporal effects?

That info would really help me out in finding a camera on my own, but i'll take any suggestions if you know of a camera that would fit my needs.
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#2 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 11:03 PM

You aren't going to get what you want with the money you have.

You can use something like Twixtor or MotionPerfect to approximate slo-mo in post, but it isn't ideal - it works better in some situations than others, and it's really good at slowing down already-slow stuff, as opposed to making slo-mo out of normal speed footage. Interlacing is not usually used in this way in professional practice, but it's a dirty trick if you're desperate since you can trade resolution for frame rate in post and approximate, for instance, a 60p recording from a 60i source.

As to cameras, you could look at the JVC GY-HD range. Since the HD250, they've been capable of shooting true 60P and they will genlock, although I suspect they'll be well out of your price range, especially with the better lenses they really need to do their best work. Image is a rather nice 720p.

Perhaps just within your price range is the Canon XLH1, which is probably the sharpest consumer camera out there. It doesn't do true 24p, but it genlocks, has a somewhat useful lens mount, and the sharpness offsets the need to deinterlace to an extent, certainly if you're finishing to SD.

Below this level you probably won't find anything genlockable, so you'd have to live with that.

Even cheaper would be something like the HV20 (or whatever this week's version is called), which is a tiny palmcorder with all the downsides this implies. It might suit you if you can deal with the nastiness of the user interface and lenses. It will shoot both fairly reasonable 24p (with a major caveat regarding rolling-shutter skew) and 60i, opening up the possibility of postproduction bob-deinterlacing to a reasonably convincing 60p. They're also tiny, which will help you with a stereo rig.

P
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#3 Hal Smith

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 11:51 PM

Canon says the HV40 has true 24P.

Two of them plus DOF adapters, still lenses, support gear, etc. would put you pretty close to $10K. I'm not too certain about sync but I'll bet someone has come up with a kludge for genlocking the HV series of cameras.
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#4 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:31 AM

"Rap video slow-mo" is a really nebulous idea. If you've got examples of what you're aiming for, that would be much more helpful. With that said, you're going to run into some major problems simply due to your price range. Phil is right about the gen-locking thing- I'm pretty sure that having your eyes out of sync is going to ruin the stereo effect, since it's a pretty delicate thing. You just don't get gen-locking on cheaper cameras. Nor do you typically get the ability to shoot at high frame rates- 60fps is probably the best you'll get. Whether that's enough is up to you. There are optical flow tools such as Twixtor and Kronos that can help you retime your shots, but it's really important that you understand how they work, and get to know what they can and cannot do before you commit to using them. They can only retime what you've managed to capture, and if the motion was too fast for you to capture it, then they will have nothing to work with and you'll just get a weird-looking smeary mess.

You might want to look into renting instead of purchasing, so that you can get your hands on cameras with the features that you're looking for.
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#5 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 01:00 AM

Hate to say it, but might be worthwhile to hold out to see what the RED Scarlet does. The basic kit is around 4K, whatever that means in terms of what it can do, but IIRC it can do variable frame-rates.
Problem is, it ain't out yet, and there's no official word as to when it'll be out aside from sometime in '09 (last i heard).
Also I don't know of any footage from that camera yet, though there is footage from RED Ones around to get a rough, and i stress that rough, idea of what is possible.
But as mentioned, renting may be a better idea. Especially if it's only for one project.
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#6 David Ghast

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 03:07 AM

Thanks you all for the information, this is really helping me out. This is what im talking about when i say 'rap video slo-mo' : http://www.youtube.c...c-37pC4#t=8m19s What framerate would you say they shot that at?

I still really need help finding the most economical 24p/48i-capable genlocking camera that will enable me to shoot something like this, so dont give up on me yet! And if its beyond my price range, ill either find the money, or rent.
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#7 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:26 AM

Within your budget, you could probably get your hands on a pair of Panasonic HVX200's, which are able to overcrank to 60 when shooting in 720p-native. There are instructions in the booklet of how to sync timecodes, then just leave them both in "free run", and re-sync every few hours or so.

You could get a couple used for around $3k each, leaving some money for quality tripods and any other accessories you may need.
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#8 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 01:26 PM

Im looking to shoot with a stereoscopic setup and i have 10k to spend on two digital cameras and equipment needed to sync them. Im wanting to shoot the whole production in 24p (p as in true progressive, no in camera deinterlacing tricks) but i also need the capability to film a scene in slo-mo (think rap video slo-mo), can i achieve this in post with just 24p, or do i need to shoot in a higher framerate? What framerates do rap videos usually shoot in to get that effect? Does shooting interlaced help produce those smooth temporal effects?

That info would really help me out in finding a camera on my own, but i'll take any suggestions if you know of a camera that would fit my needs.



David:

You could try two Sumix 12A2c cameras ($5K for both), plus you will have spare money for the PC (or laptops) and software needed to record stereo in perfect sync with the cameras.

Here you can see some images of the camera: (they can do up to 1080/60p and 720/120p for slow motion)


http://www.davidrubi...mp;forum_id=116



Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.
Cambridge Wisconsin, USA.
http://www.davidrubio3d.com/
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#9 DS Williams

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 02:56 PM

Panny's HMC 150 has true progressive ships that give you true 24p
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