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Need Clarification, confused by salesman


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#1 DS Williams

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 02:13 PM

Hello all. I purchased the Cinevate 35mm adapter and I bought Zeiss ZF still glass to use with it. I understand that Zeiss ZF primes have an image circle meant to cover FF still photography, i.e. 36x24mm approximately.

I asked the head Cinevate salesman about the Brevis and if I could achieve almost VistaVision frame sizes with it, seeing that VistaVision, to my knowledge, is 8 perfs across and 36x24 approximately.

He answered with this email. I believe he is wrong on a few points, namely the size of VistaVision and the fact that Super35 is 3 perf only. Can I have some clarification? :blink:

Here is his email:
Good question; the Brevis imaging element is a full 35mm frame, approx, 10% larger than the standard 24x36mm (so 26x39mm). that means you can zoom in by approx 10% past the edges and not lose any image quality.
S35 has the same width as Academy full 35mm, but uses only 3 perforations instead of 4. Translating to video, it means the frame height for S35 is 3/4 of Academy 35mm.
VistaVision is a format used exclusively in film and cannot be achieved in video. Basically it combines two 35mm frames horizontally, giving you one big 48x36mm film frame.

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#2 Jean-Louis Seguin

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 03:37 PM

He is wrong on the frame size.

I looked it up and the camera aperture for Vistavision is 1.485" (37.72 mm) by 0.981" (24.92 mm),
very close to 36mmx24mm.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 04:05 PM

Hi,

S35 is very often 4 perf, as there are more 4 perf cameras in existence than anything else. The ability to re-frame can come in handy at times.

Stephen
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#4 Patrick Neary

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:31 PM

He answered with this email. I believe he is wrong on a few points...


wow, he kind of struck out on all points there. :)
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:29 PM

Good question; the Brevis imaging element is a full 35mm frame, approx, 10% larger than the standard 24x36mm (so 26x39mm). that means you can zoom in by approx 10% past the edges and not lose any image quality.
S35 has the same width as Academy full 35mm, but uses only 3 perforations instead of 4. Translating to video, it means the frame height for S35 is 3/4 of Academy 35mm.
VistaVision is a format used exclusively in film and cannot be achieved in video. Basically it combines two 35mm frames horizontally, giving you one big 48x36mm film frame.


Super-35 can be either 3-perf or 4-perf -- it just means shooting Full Aperture (Silent), not Academy Aperture (Sound), so it's slightly wider than Academy.

VistaVision is the same as 8-perf 35mm still horizontal photography, 24mm x 36mm more or less. I don't where he got 48mm x 36mm from because you can't fit that onto 35mm stock. It's two 4-perf 35mm (Super) cine frames in total area, i.e. 24mm x 18mm doubled to 24mm x 36mm, but turned horizontal, so 8-perf sideways rather than 4-perf vertically.
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#6 Daniel Porto

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 05:06 AM

Super-35 can be either 3-perf or 4-perf -- it just means shooting Full Aperture (Silent), not Academy Aperture (Sound), so it's slightly wider than Academy.


Do most features shoot Academy aperture? Or does it not matter if you shoot Super 35? (as in DI it can be shrunk down in post to accommodate for sound?? or perhaps there is some other way of shrinking the recorded image size using the traditional way??

----

With the economy crisis at the moment a lot of commercials are starting to shoot Super 35 to save costs (at our rental house). I suspect that in future if digital takes over like everyone thinks, film will still stay alive and will mostly be shot 3-perf or even 2-perf. But obviously this would usually only apply to those productions which don't have ridiculously high budgets.
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#7 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 05:41 PM

wow, he kind of struck out on all points there. :)


In a computer class I had many years ago, the instructor told us that salesmen are the least reliable sources onaccurate information.
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#8 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 06:14 PM

If you are doing a D.I., there's no reason to not use Full Aperture / Super, whether for 1.85 or 2.40 -- yes, when you do the film-out, it gets resized to fit into the 4-perf 35mm sound aperture projection format (standard Academy / 1.85 / anamorphic).

Yes, if you are not doing a D.I., you could shoot "Super 1.85" and then optically reduce it to standard 1.85, but the extra quality of the slight optical reduction is counteracted by the graininess of working with dupes and copying in an optical printer, plus the higher costs, so there isn't a real advantage compared to shooting in standard 1.85 and being able to contact print everything. Though shooting in 3-perf may give you enough savings to make up for the optical printer work. But generally, if you are not doing a D.I., it makes more sense to shoot in a standard format that can be contact printed for making release prints with sound.

Do most features shoot Academy aperture? Or does it not matter if you shoot Super 35? (as in DI it can be shrunk down in post to accommodate for sound?? or perhaps there is some other way of shrinking the recorded image size using the traditional way??


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#9 Daniel Porto

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 09:22 PM

If you are doing a D.I., there's no reason to not use Full Aperture / Super, whether for 1.85 or 2.40 -- yes, when you do the film-out, it gets resized to fit into the 4-perf 35mm sound aperture projection format (standard Academy / 1.85 / anamorphic).

Yes, if you are not doing a D.I., you could shoot "Super 1.85" and then optically reduce it to standard 1.85, but the extra quality of the slight optical reduction is counteracted by the graininess of working with dupes and copying in an optical printer, plus the higher costs, so there isn't a real advantage compared to shooting in standard 1.85 and being able to contact print everything. Though shooting in 3-perf may give you enough savings to make up for the optical printer work. But generally, if you are not doing a D.I., it makes more sense to shoot in a standard format that can be contact printed for making release prints with sound.


Thank-you once again David!
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