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2:35 flat films?


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#1 catherine lutes

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 05:08 PM

Hey all

venturing into a short film shoot this week that I want to shoot 2:35 for the ratio Anamorphic is not an option so we are shooting 3perf 35mm and I was planning on a 2:35 ground glass, leaving some room to play around with the frame if need be in the DI. The film is being shown with other films that will all be 1:85 and there is some concern about this short being projected differently - which i am trying to argue it will not be projected differently it will just be letterboxed, as we will not be going to an anamorphic film out.

I am now looking for a list of references of films that may have gone this route - or any other helpful info on this process.

thanks
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#2 Andrew Koch

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:04 PM

Since you are going 3 perf 2.40, you may want to consider shooting super35 for a little extra negative area.
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:07 PM

Certainly there have been 2.35 letterboxed "flat" trailers but there would be no point in doing a whole feature this way because scope projection is just as common as flat projection in theaters. Which begs the question why it would be such a big deal to just switch to a scope lens for your short when it comes up in a collection, unless they will all be spliced together.

Generally you wouldn't have a 2.35 letterboxed sequence in a 1.85 movie unless it is a documentary on cinema, like "Visions of Light".
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#4 catherine lutes

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 09:07 PM

that has been the one stipulation - that we cant have them changing anything during projection and the rest of the films will all be projected 1:85 on film. not sure if its because they will be spliced together or not, but its sort of the one rule that has been laid down

am i missing something in thinking I can shoot 3 perf 35 (or s35) and then after DI finish on standard 35 letterboxed for projection?
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#5 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 09:22 PM

You can certainly do that, it's just possibly not a very smart move if you're doing it for this one specific purpose.

The black bars are never quite as black as the black masking surrounding the screen, and the edges between your picture and the black bars never quite as sharp as the edge between the picture and the masking. Any alignment or framing issues with the projection can be sharply highlighted by the horizontal gap between the top of your "active" picture and the top of the screen.

While I would not wish to discourage you from pursuing your creative intent in this matter, what you'll get will be everyone else's image filling the screen nicely, followed by your picture floating between two dark grey black boxes, even with the best possible projection scenario - which, at a festival of independent shorts, you may not get. This could negatively impact the way your work is received, even if you've done nothing to provoke it.

P
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#6 Justin Hayward

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:02 PM

what you'll get will be everyone else's image filling the screen nicely, followed by your picture floating between two dark grey black boxes,


Yeah, and generally the idea for 2:35 is to get wider than 1:85, not thinner.

I understand wanting the 2:35 aspect ratio for the composition, but if you just crop the 1:85 and project it flat with the rest of the movies, it’ll probably look smaller in comparison.
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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:12 PM

I understand wanting the 2:35 aspect ratio for the composition, but if you just crop the 1:85 and project it flat with the rest of the movies, it’ll probably look smaller in comparison.


Unless you project anamorphic and just hard-matte to 1.85 on the anamorphic print. Equally asinine, maybe even more-so. . .

Either way it's a gross waste of film.

Unless you have a sync-ed dual-projector system, or throw out 22.6% of your image area for the entirety of the film save the anamorphic section, the anamorphic can't be bigger due to the limitations of the technology.

Then again, they threw out 28% of the top and bottom of the frame in the IMAX blowup of "Dark Knight", except for the IMAX segments. But, keep in mind, that wasn't just a couple shots that was 15-20% of the movie.
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#8 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:04 PM

To answer your question, Catherine, yes, it can easily be done -- adding a 2.35 letterbox / hard matte to a spherical image being recorded out to flat 35mm. Just shoot a framing chart and make sure the letterboxing is added during the D.I.

Like I said, the only examples I can think of are in documentaries about cinema and cinematography, when they have to show a CinemaScope clip, and in flat trailers of scope movies for theaters running a flat feature.
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#9 John Sprung

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 11:37 AM

Since you are going 3 perf 2.40, you may want to consider shooting super35 for a little extra negative area.


3 perf is pretty much all super 35 width these days. There was a little bit of Academy 3 perf done a couple decades back, but that was for TV, before the Rank telecines had burn-in compensation. Before that, you had to dedicate a machine to Super centered stuff, or you'd have a bright edge in the picture.

For even more cost-effective 2.39, even longer ago, there was 2-perf. But the equipment is too old and hard to find these days to be a practical alternative. The native ratio of 2 perf is 2.66:1, so full width 3-perf gives you a little more area.

As to the OP's problem, the thing to do is two film-outs from the DI: One letterboxed for the requirements of this customer, and another standard anamorphic.




-- J.S.
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#10 Bruce Taylor

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:02 PM

For even more cost-effective 2.39, even longer ago, there was 2-perf. But the equipment is too old and hard to find these days to be a practical alternative.
-- J.S.


Yes, old converted Mirchells and Arri lls are old and hard to find. But there are a few modern (and middle aged!) 2 perf cameras about. I hear that Panavision now has 2 perf movements available. There are a few converted Arri BL4s. Aaton will shortly release the 2 and 3 perf Penelope (or is it already out?). And there are the Russian Kinor 35mm cameras that have been converted to 2 perf. I have one for rent, and there are a few others scattered across the US. There is plenty of post support for the format now as well.

Bruce Taylor
www.indi35.com
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#11 xavier rodriguez

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:07 PM

Yes, old converted Mirchells and Arri lls are old and hard to find. But there are a few modern (and middle aged!) 2 perf cameras about. I hear that Panavision now has 2 perf movements available. There are a few converted Arri BL4s. Aaton will shortly release the 2 and 3 perf Penelope (or is it already out?). And there are the Russian Kinor 35mm cameras that have been converted to 2 perf. I have one for rent, and there are a few others scattered across the US. There is plenty of post support for the format now as well.

Bruce Taylor
www.indi35.com



Abel Cine has the Penelope for rent in 2 perf or 3 perf configuration.
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