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underexposed vhs quality!


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#1 Elie Kamal

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 11:19 AM

First of all I read all the threads but couldn’t find an answer,
I’ve shot a music video last week using red one with zeiss 2.1 prime lenses. I shot it at 2k 16/9, redcode 28 and 25fps. 5600Kelvin , 320 asa. Redspace monitoring (checking with raw from time to time)
(build 17.2)
I didn’t modify any of the settings (gain, curve…)
I shot using an hd monitor (that I was calibrating regularly) and I was constantly checking with my light meter.
Well, surprisingly today I was seeing the rushes on scratch and redcine and the noise is enormous!!! It’s like an underexposed vhs! All the picture is noisy, even in the highlights! (I had candles in some scenes and the flame itself is very noisy)
PS: 2 shots out of … were without noise…!!!!!
It’s not the first time I shoot red and I’ve tested it so many times and this is the first time this thing happens.
Any idea why this happened?
And the most important thing is how could that be fixed????
Thanks a lot!
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#2 John Sprung

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 11:41 AM

A couple things sound significant: It looked fine on the on-set monitors, and the noise is uniform from dark to light areas. From that, I'd guess that this isn't an exposure issue. It must have happened downstream from the actual chip. Do you have the camera original CF cards? If so, see if they play OK on the camera that recorded them.




-- J.S.
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#3 Elie Kamal

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 11:58 AM

well the cf cards i used were both 16 and 8gb, none of them were the original red cf cards but they workes just fine.
do u think this is where the problem comes from?
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#4 John Sprung

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 12:14 PM

I'm hoping that the cards haven't been re-used, and that the problem happened in transferring somewhere downstream. If you luck is good, the material will be OK on the cards.



-- J.S.
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#5 David Rakoczy

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 12:30 PM

Elle,

Please don't take this the wrong was as I hope you are able to salvage your footage!

I just find it interesting that many 'producers & clients' prefer digital as they feel 'safer' feeling that if they see the image on a monitor then they 'have' the image.. they don't have to wait for a neg report from the lab... evidently this is not true.. even with a RED. In some ways, Film is safer as you know you 'have' it (provided you know how to expose). On Film, you can always retransfer from the neg if necessary. On the other hand.. if you acquire with corrupted files .. you are done. I really don't mean to start another RED vs Film or Film vs Digi debate but I could not help think about this in light of Elle's experience.

Again, I hope your original acquired images appear!
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#6 Matthew Rogers

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 03:23 PM

I think you may have hit a bug in the metadata. I know that some footage I shot back in Sept. when looked at in Scratch by the client was way underexposed looking and noisy. When they hit reset the reset button on the clip in Scratch, it turned out normal. I know that if it looked fine on the monitor, then good data is there, but RedCine and Scratch are incorrectly reading the meta data. Try loading a clip into RedCine and then in the color tab, hit the reset button. That should hopefully fix it. If that doesn't work, then there might be a way to strip out all the meta data so it defaults back to normal.

Matthew
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#7 John Sprung

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 04:53 PM

I've heard that Redalert blows away the RSX files and make new ones with all the default settings in them. Not sure if that'll help, though.




-- J.S.
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#8 K Borowski

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 07:20 PM

Elle,

Please don't take this the wrong was as I hope you are able to salvage your footage!

I just find it interesting that many 'producers & clients' prefer digital as they feel 'safer' feeling that if they see the image on a monitor then they 'have' the image.. they don't have to wait for a neg report from the lab... evidently this is not true.. even with a RED. In some ways, Film is safer as you know you 'have' it (provided you know how to expose). On Film, you can always retransfer from the neg if necessary. On the other hand.. if you acquire with corrupted files .. you are done. I really don't mean to start another RED vs Film or Film vs Digi debate but I could not help think about this in light of Elle's experience.

Again, I hope your original acquired images appear!


What about when the film gets stuck in the processor?

I love film, but the high speed roller transport machines often don't have the safety mechanisms they should, and all it takes is some jackass putting a piece of scotch tape on a cut piece of film for the tension to break the film apart and ruin everyone's footage following.

I've heard stories of 10,000 feet of film, an entire day's footage getting lost, or even worse, some of the still labs got greedy and used to use modified Cine processors with still film, where 10,000 feet of film wouldn't just be a day's work, it'd be four or five guys' weddings, a PJ's week's work, and 50 sets of senior pictures. . .
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#9 David Rakoczy

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 07:48 PM

What about when the film gets stuck in the processor?

I love film, but the high speed roller transport machines often don't have the safety mechanisms they should, and all it takes is some jackass putting a piece of scotch tape on a cut piece of film for the tension to break the film apart and ruin everyone's footage following.

I've heard stories of 10,000 feet of film, an entire day's footage getting lost, or even worse, some of the still labs got greedy and used to use modified Cine processors with still film, where 10,000 feet of film wouldn't just be a day's work, it'd be four or five guys' weddings, a PJ's week's work, and 50 sets of senior pictures. . .


mmmm.. I never said those things don't happen Karl... I only commented that a digital acquisition is not always 'in the can' either...
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#10 John Brawley

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 08:26 PM

I've heard stories of 10,000 feet of film, an entire day's footage getting lost, or even worse, some of the still labs got greedy and used to use modified Cine processors


Has it happened to you ?

In nearly 20 years I've never lost film due to the lab screwing up.

I have lost film due to the loader screwing up, something that can as easily happen with data wrangling. Most of the lost film shots were still salvageable.

In my much shorter digital shooting career, I've lost a lot more shots shooting digitally (tape and hard drive) than on film.

Just my own personal experience.

jb
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#11 K Borowski

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 10:55 PM

Has it happened to you ?

In nearly 20 years I've never lost film due to the lap screwing up.


No, it hasn't.

That doesn't mean it doesn't though, and I have close personal friends who have lost film.

I've had film get lost in the mail.

They lost an entire episode of Lost because it got X-rayed. That is stupid, mind you. Someone ought set up a lab in HI.

But, like I said, there are a lot of labs that don't have backups and safeguards on their film processors.

And, it's amazing in this day and age, with infrared cameras, etc. that they can't catch something stupid like a scotch tape piece on a roll.


It COULD be safe, if the latest technology were used.
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#12 Serge Teulon

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 05:03 AM

I'm with David and John on this.

Everytime I hear of or read that someone has hit a wall in a digital shoot with their footage, the thought of "Maybe if you'd shot it on film..." always springs to the forefront of my mind.....

Elle - sorry for quick off topic comment. I feel for you and I really hope that you can get your images back!!

Edited by Serge Teulon, 02 April 2009 - 05:06 AM.

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#13 John Brawley

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 05:34 AM

No, it hasn't.

That doesn't mean it doesn't though, and I have close personal friends who have lost film.


Yes but can't you say exactly the same thing with digital images ? There's a good practise way and a bad practise way to do it. There's an assumption because it's digital then it's foolproof but we all know it's not and if anything is just as fragile as film. It really is only as good as the systems and processes you use, no matter which format.

jb
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#14 K Borowski

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 05:41 AM

What I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to point out is that you can do everything right with film and still end up with nothing. I suppose there are conditions with tape where it could get erased/corrupted, but even here you can mitigate, to some extent, this possibility by just copying everything to multiple sources.

With film you have a single, ruinable source that isn't safe until it comes out the hind end of the processing machine. It is exposed to all sorts of hazards even with the greatest of precautions.
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#15 David Rakoczy

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 06:53 AM

Has it happened to you ? In nearly 20 years I've never lost film due to the lab screwing up.
jb


20 years here as well and NEVER a Lab related issue... Technicolor, Deluxe, Fotokem and CFI... never ;)

There is a reason Film is still the best archiving format.
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#16 Serge Teulon

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 07:51 AM

What I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to point out is that you can do everything right with film and still end up with nothing.


Karl, don't you think that just applies to in life general?
Nothing is perfect and there is always a risk that whatever you are doing and whichever way you're doing it, that it can at any moment, go wrong.

What is interesting, is that there are similar issues in digital that can also occur in film. But, and it's a big but, there are people who use film that can say that they've never had lab related issues. The same can't be said for the dark side..... ;)

Edited by Serge Teulon, 02 April 2009 - 07:52 AM.

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#17 David Rakoczy

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 07:58 AM

If I may add Serge...

Karl,

Serge, John(s), I and many others, get it.. we know there are risks.. we each have to await the neg report from the Lab.. that can take three days if shipped.. so we know.. we live it. We are just saying that shooting 1s and 0s doesn't necessarily mitigate risk. You (of all people) should understand that. We all openly concede your point.. for us it is a given.. we are just commenting on those who prefer digital because they 'perceive' it as a safer capture medium... it is not.
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#18 John Sprung

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 11:37 AM

Has it happened to you ?

In nearly 20 years I've never lost film due to the lab screwing up.


We've had film break in the lab a couple times, back in the days when the sitcoms were on PSR's and Panaflexes. The issue was that four assistants were threading four cameras, and nobody wanted to be the slowest. So, in their haste, some of them pulled the film outward at an angle instead of straight down, and then just inched the edge damage up into the mag.




-- J.S.
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#19 Chris Keth

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 12:10 PM

We've had film break in the lab a couple times, back in the days when the sitcoms were on PSR's and Panaflexes. The issue was that four assistants were threading four cameras, and nobody wanted to be the slowest. So, in their haste, some of them pulled the film outward at an angle instead of straight down, and then just inched the edge damage up into the mag.




-- J.S.


Part of me wants to laugh at how silly that is.
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#20 K Borowski

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:27 AM

Part of me wants to laugh at how silly that is.


One good way to counteract loaders' bad habits would be to have them pay the actual cost of having to reshoot whatever their careless loading caused the processing machine to destroy.

I'm sure the Union would LOVE that concept. . .
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