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RED ASA question URGENT! Need answered by tomorrow at 5pm!


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#1 Kyle Shapiro

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 09:51 PM

I am shooting on the RED Camera tomorrow and wanted to know what ASA would most replicate the look of film stocks:

Kodak Vision 500T 5279 (for interiors)
&
Eastman EXR 100T 5248 (for exteriors)

Any information would be greatly appreciated. I need this answered by tomorrow night (4/3/09) by 5pm pacific time. Thanks in advance!

Due to urgency please feel free to e-mail me at kyle_shaps@yahoo.com

Edited by Kyle Shapiro, 02 April 2009 - 09:55 PM.

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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 11:11 PM

I don't think changing REDs ASA would do anything to replicate a stock's look. That would be more contrast and color reproduction in post.
That being said, the RED is a native 320, so plan on NDs outside and/or some deep stops.
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 11:11 PM

Shooting at 250 to 320 ASA in daylight balance is optimal, but it has nothing to do with making it look like 5279 vs. 5248 -- there is no setting on the camera that replicates the look of specific film stocks.
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#4 Justin Hayward

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 12:04 AM

Shooting at 250 to 320 ASA in daylight balance is optimal,


Would 320 to 400 ASA for a slight underexposure be safer for exterior? For video, that is...
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#5 Kyle Shapiro

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 12:48 AM

Thank you, both. Last time I shot on RED I did 320 and was happy with the look, so I will do the same here.
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#6 Keith Walters

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 12:56 AM

-- there is no setting on the camera that replicates the look of specific film stocks.

Yes there is!!
... isn't there...?
Maybe that was build 21...
sorry...

Edited by Keith Walters, 03 April 2009 - 12:57 AM.

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#7 Keith Walters

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 12:58 AM

That being said, the RED is a native 320, so plan on NDs outside and/or some deep stops.

And don't forget the IR issues. You need the right sort of filters.
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#8 John Sprung

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:40 AM

-- there is no setting on the camera that replicates the look of specific film stocks.


Indeed, that's the whole genious of the "raw" thing -- all it does on set is compress and record the data as it comes from the chip. Looks you can do in the comfort and convenience of a post facility, not while the cast and crew are on the clock. All you have to do is not crush the blacks or blow out the whites.

And yes, get the "hot mirror" ND's from Formatt or Tiffen.




-- J.S.
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#9 Bob Hayes

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 11:28 AM

Realize that the camera is daylight balanced. I think the sweat spot is 320 ASA. I’d shoot it like reversal so you don’t want to over expose it. When shooting interiors with tungsten lights you need too gel your lights with CTB or use a blue filter 80 b, c, d on the camera. If you filter the camera your effective ASA is now 160. Trying to color correct electronically in the camera isn’t a good solution.

Also IR issues are very real. If you are shooting in bright daylight and ND yourself to a wide open stop you may experience IR exposure issues. The IR isn’t effected by standard ND so if your base stop was F16 and you ND’d down to 1.4 the IR would still be exposing at F16.
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#10 Michael Kubaszak

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 11:55 AM

Yes there is!!
... isn't there...?
Maybe that was build 21...
sorry...



that made my day!
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#11 Mike Thorn

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:15 PM

[off-topic...]

And yes, get the "hot mirror" ND's from Formatt or Tiffen.

Perhaps it was just the particular filter I had, or the phase of the moon or something, but the last show I used Tiffen ND filters on, I had terrible problems with soft shots. We did a test and found that the Tiffen actually diffused the shot a little.

Switching over to a spare set of Schneiders solved the problem. Put a bad taste in my mouth for Tiffen, but I know that they produce quality glass, so I'm not sure what to think.

Edited by Mike Thorn, 03 April 2009 - 10:16 PM.

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#12 Ram Shani

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 09:23 AM

i am about to shoot first time with the red

what are the IR issues with the red
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#13 Jake Kerber

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 10:34 AM

i am about to shoot first time with the red

what are the IR issues with the red


If you're shooting in sunny conditions or under warm tungsten lights and using heavy ND (1.2 or higher) it's recommended you use
a Hot Mirror or similar filter to get rid of the IR wavelengths and restore the image to normal.

If you search on Reduser, you'll find a couple tests showing the effect. Once you see it, you'll understand why it's important to avoid.
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#14 Peter Moretti

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 03:40 AM

Indeed, that's the whole genious of the "raw" thing -- all it does on set is compress and record the data as it comes from the chip. Looks you can do in the comfort and convenience of a post facility, not while the cast and crew are on the clock. All you have to do is not crush the blacks or blow out the whites.
...

John,

I'm not so sure about the genius of the uber-metadata approach. It seems more like a necessity: the Red only has so much computational power. It chose to use that power for high image resolution and wavelet based compress. I don't think the camera could do all that PLUS apply a color grading on the fly (which is what a "baked-in" approach does).

Now someone will say, why bake-in the look? But the retort is that no matter what's being recorded, an image will be baked in. And what really matters is how off is what's being baked-in from what's wanted as a final look. In the case of the metadata approach, the image from the sensor can vary greatly from what the final look should be. In which case, more work and less flexibility will exist in post when compared with using a properly baked-in image. (I say properly because you can come very close in-camera but blowout the highlights, for instance, and then you're in worse shape than if you had recorded image corrections only as metadata.)

Another advantage in camera image processing has is it's done pre-compression. While R3D is very high quality, it's not uncompressed. It will introduce a baseline error that's absent to in-camera processing.

Furthermore, in-camera processing allows you to take advantage of dynamic range where you need it most. By being able to adjust gain, gamma, knee, etc.. you can maximize the limited range for what's most important for the shot.

Finally, in-camera processing allows the cinematographer and director greater control over the image. And this is not just an ego issue, it has to do with the fact that during post metadata can become separated from the image or misinterpreted.

I think one of the ways that Red was able to come up with such an economical camera design was to offload all the image processing to post.
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#15 Serge Teulon

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:27 AM

Shooting at 250 to 320 ASA in daylight balance is optimal, but it has nothing to do with making it look like 5279 vs. 5248 -- there is no setting on the camera that replicates the look of specific film stocks.


Does that mean that the red allows you to jump through asa's in the menus?
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#16 John Sprung

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:37 PM

Does that mean that the red allows you to jump through asa's in the menus?


The ASA setting on the Red is like the ASA setting on a light meter. It's not like choosing film stocks or adjusting gain on a video camera. It sets where the finder display will show you exposure warnings. The chip is what it is and records the same data no matter what the ASA setting. If you want slower than 320, hang IR blocking ND's. If you want faster, you're out of luck for now.




-- J.S.
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#17 John Sprung

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 01:03 PM

I'm not so sure about the genius of the uber-metadata approach. It seems more like a necessity: the Red only has so much computational power. It chose to use that power for high image resolution and wavelet based compress. I don't think the camera could do all that PLUS apply a color grading on the fly (which is what a "baked-in" approach does).


No, it's the other way around. Conventional video cameras are forced to bake in to some extent because the recording formats can't handle the full range from the sensor. By recording the full output of the chip, Red makes in-camera color grading irrelevant.

Now someone will say, why bake-in the look? But the retort is that no matter what's being recorded, an image will be baked in.


No, like with film, Red is retaining everything that the light sensing technology it uses can produce. It doesn't need to discard information like a tape camera must. You set the iris and hang the filters you want in order to get started on the way to the final look.

In the case of the metadata approach,


This may be the fundamental error. There is no "metadata approach". You don't need any metadata at all, any more than you do with film. You can play with it if you want, or you can leave it all for post.

the image from the sensor can vary greatly from what the final look should be. In which case, more work and less flexibility will exist in post ...


The image on a camera original negative varies greatly from the final look, too. But it gives you far more flexibility in post. A baked in look throws away that flexibility.

Furthermore, in-camera processing allows you to take advantage of dynamic range where you need it most. .... Finally, in-camera processing allows the cinematographer and director greater control over the image.


No, you have the same dynamic range and control available in both cases. In one case, you're forced to do it on the set, in the other you have it in post.

I think one of the ways that Red was able to come up with such an economical camera design was to offload all the image processing to post.


That's true.





-- J.S.
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#18 Serge Teulon

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 01:04 PM

The ASA setting on the Red is like the ASA setting on a light meter. It's not like choosing film stocks or adjusting gain on a video camera. It sets where the finder display will show you exposure warnings. The chip is what it is and records the same data no matter what the ASA setting. If you want slower than 320, hang IR blocking ND's. If you want faster, you're out of luck for now.



I was just dreaming of the possibility of being able to roll through different ASA's, like on my meter, without having to go through the technical avenue and testing.

Cheers John! ;)
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#19 Peter Moretti

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:18 AM

No, it's the other way around. Conventional video cameras are forced to bake in to some extent because the recording formats can't handle the full range from the sensor. By recording the full output of the chip, Red makes in-camera color grading irrelevant.

...

John,

It makes no sense to me that you would argue for having basic image adjustments, like white balance, be done at the post production stage where data quality is lower. Wouldn't you want white balance calculation to be done at the sensor level during the analog to digital quantization? That is when data is truly off the sensor.

White balance compensation in post is performed upon an image that has undergone three stages of processing: 1) the analog to digital quantization at the sensor level, 2) compression to .R3D and 3) demosicing.

I can understand you arguing against trying to lock down a look in-camera (even if I tend to disagree). But basic image adjustments, like white balance, I see no good reason to leave for post. Leaving everything for post seems more like a philosophy than a technical advantage.

In the case of white balance, all it does is add another stage of processing to post, and its never going to look better than if the math was done in-camera.

BTW, the film negative analogy, cuts both ways (pun intended I guess). While a film negative looks much different from the final image, the film stock itself is selected based on color temperature, light intensity and to create a certain look.
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#20 Alfonso Parra

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:22 AM

I made a test with RED and I use my ligthmeter to 125 Asa for tungstent light and 160 Asa to daylight. Of course you can use other sensibilites but you are loosing detail on shadows and incresae noise. As you now, 320 Asa in camera is a metadata and it is not nominal sensibility or efective sensibility, nominal or efective sensibility depends of S/N signal and saturation base either of the sensor and electroncic device.

Alfonso Parra AEC
www.alfonsoparra.com
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