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Accidentally recording in 5600k indoors with tungsten lights URGENT


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#1 Kyle Shapiro

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 03:07 PM

I made a huge amateur mistake filming last night and was wondering if it is at all fixable in post with a professional colorist. I am thinking no, but maybe there is hope. I recorded indoors with tungsten balanced lights with the camera set at 5600k. I shot with f-stops between 2.4 and 2.1 . Due to the low light situation I am thinking that if a 3200k filter is put on it, the shots won't even show because a CTO or CTB will take a stop of light away from the existing 5600k shot.

Please give me a sign of hope...or else due to mine and my AC's mistake there will be a reshoot.
:( <_< :angry:
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#2 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 03:32 PM

I made a huge amateur mistake filming last night and was wondering if it is at all fixable in post with a professional colorist. I am thinking no, but maybe there is hope. I recorded indoors with tungsten balanced lights with the camera set at 5600k. I shot with f-stops between 2.4 and 2.1 . Due to the low light situation I am thinking that if a 3200k filter is put on it, the shots won't even show because a CTO or CTB will take a stop of light away from the existing 5600k shot.

Please give me a sign of hope...or else due to mine and my AC's mistake there will be a reshoot.
:( <_< :angry:


Hi Kyle, there is definetly hope ;-)

If you go into RED ALERT and open the file(s) you can reset the Color Temperature to whatever you want, and then choose "Make quicktimes" to get new quicktime proxies at your desired color temperature. Also you (or your colorist) can use RED CINE and again reset the color temperature to whatever it is supposed to be, and export your files to whatever format you want.

RED shoots RAW, so the color temperature you set doesn´t really affect the RAW files, it´s only included in the meta data and you are free to reset it later (as shown above), so unless I misunderstand something, you are in the clear - your mistake is fixable! Welcome to the world of RED ;-)

Edited by Eirik Tyrihjel, 04 April 2009 - 03:36 PM.

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#3 Kyle Shapiro

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 03:35 PM

If you go into RED ALERT and open the file(s) you can reset the Color Temperature to whatever you want, and then choose "Make quicktimes" to get new quicktime proxies at your desired color temperature. or you can use RED CINE and again reset the color temperature to whatever it is supposed to be, and export your files to whatever format you want.

RED shoots RAW so, the color temperature you set doesn´t really affect the RAW files, it´s only included in the meta data, you are free to reset it later (as shown above), so unless I misunderstand something, you are in the clear - your mistake is fixable! Welcome to the world of RED ;-)



Ahhhhhhh. So are you 100% positive it can be fixed. I was losing sleep over this.
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#4 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 03:41 PM

Ahhhhhhh. So are you 100% positive it can be fixed. I was losing sleep over this.


Well as long as your situation is this:

You shot a tungsten lit scene at 5600 Kelvin setting in the camera (instead of 3200), I am 100% sure you are in the clear. Simplified: RED records the information that hits it´s sensor - so you can define your color temperature in post.
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#5 Kyle Shapiro

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 03:43 PM

Well as long as your situation is this:

You shot a tungsten lit scene at 5600 Kelvin setting in the camera (instead of 3200), I am 100% sure you are in the clear. Simplified: RED records the information that hits it´s sensor - so you can define your color temperature in post.



Thank you so much. This is so relieving. Stupid mistake that only I would make when shooting digital but glad to hear it is fixable.
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#6 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 03:55 PM

I produced (and shot) a rock concert yesterday, and one of the photographers accidentally hit the user definable button that auto-sets-color temperature and got it all wrong, after resetting it I told him not to worry about it happening during the show, as it would not influence the final output. I could tell he had a hard time believing me.

Good luck on your project!

Edited by Eirik Tyrihjel, 04 April 2009 - 03:56 PM.

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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 04:14 PM

First off, Kyle, relying on random people on an internet forum, is an even-larger amateur mistake than the one you made inititially.

How about doing a little bit of leg-work and hitting the books at a local library or book store? There's far more authoritative information to be found there.



To answer your question, though, you can definitely fix it, but with my experience with other HD cameras (not RED), you can fix it, but it will never look as good as if you correctly exposed it to begin with.

IDK if RED has auto white balance, but even if you were to have used that, the results only approach the same quality if you shoot in ~5600K.

The images aren't nearly as good when you are shooting in one setting and the light is balanced to another. To paint an analogy, it's like shooting Tungsten-balanced film in daylight. You can balance back, in printing, so that it looks decent, passable, but without the filter on there to begin with, the results will definitely suffer, in comparison..

I mean, that's the reason why people try so hard to get it right to begin with. . . poop happens, but you want to strive for technical perfection on set, unless you want to spend twice as much time as you normally would in post.

Good luck to you.
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#8 Eirik Tyrihjel

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:34 PM

First off, Kyle, relying on random people on an internet forum, is an even-larger amateur mistake than the one you made inititially.

yeah... Kyle DON´T take the RANDOM guys word for it so feel free to PM me (or email me at et -:at.- groovyentertainment.com , and I will help set you up in RedCine and correct your footage, I am sure it will be just fine!

The RED sensor is 5000K native, but that doesn´t stop it from performing beautifully in any other color temperature setting. (especially compared to other HD/digital cameras)

I have owned and operated the RED ONE since Februar last year, (200+ shooting days) in all environments, for all types of budgets - for commercial, concert, documentaries and feature production, and we shoot 3200K lit scenes all the time with this cam, without filtration - but if you want to use filters, the 1/2 CTB seems to be the best bet while filming at 3200K with the RED 5000K sensor (this is too late in kyles case, while there is a little to gain in using this, I am positive your footage is fine, by what you have described).

So by all means, listen to "random people", but take it from the people who knows the camera (you got my email adress, feel free to use it), not from someone who says:

but with my experience with other HD cameras (not RED), you can fix it, but it will never look as good as if you correctly exposed it to begin with.



(Btw, this isn´t about exposure, but about color temperature....)

Edited by Eirik Tyrihjel, 04 April 2009 - 05:38 PM.

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#9 John Brawley

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:35 PM

To answer your question, though, you can definitely fix it, but with my experience with other HD cameras (not RED), you can fix it, but it will never look as good as if you correctly exposed it to begin with.



It's a little bit different with RED Karl, because the camera always shoots at it's native colour temp and you *decide* later where you want your white point to be. There is no auto white balance. It's only relevant for onset monitoring. So as long as you expose correctly using the historgrams, traffic lights, false colour etc, it should be fine to correct or even change it later. This is the plus side of the RAW workflow.

Of course because the sensor is close to daylight as it's native temp (5000K) then every time you shoot under tungsten lighting and want a tungsten white point you will probably end up with a slightly nosier blue channel.

You could use a filter to correct it optically, but there's a tradeoff in exposure of course. Most people don't find that there's much difference here either and I'd say the majority of people shooting RED don't bother with optical filtration correction. How many people do you know use optical colour correction for HD cameras ?

Some use previously obscure filters to just give it s nudge in the right direction. I've shot with 80D and 80C filters before. Schneider are about to release or have released a set of filters for exactly this purpose. Sort of the opposite of an LLD.

Even though it's technically correct to use even an 80D over no correction, most people will prefer to take the hit of no filter, usually because they don't want to loose sensitivity and trade it off for the very slight increase in noise that most people don't even notice. In theory you also reclaim a little DR if you use filtration as well, but again, an 80A (2 stops) will make your lighting budget and setup time jump.

It would be worse, in my opinion, to have an underexposed image just to get the correct whitepoint. You'll end up adding a lot more noise than just shooting with no correction and then setting the whitepoint electronically.

So Kyle, you should be fine as long as you were exposing correctly.


jb
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#10 Austin Schmidt

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 05:41 PM

Karl, I would recommend you to follow your own advice in doing a little leg work and research before posting subjective answers on this forum. RED technology is very different from other digital formats. Like Eirik stated earlier, the image records in raw with no color correction settings "baked" into the image, this includes color temperature settings. Setting the camera at 5600 or 3200 or any other temp is just for the DP/crew to see the image in a certain way on their monitor on set. Along with the raw image a metadata file is created that stores the camera settings (such as color temp, color space etc) you viewed your image in. When the raw image goes through color correction, you then have the option to apply that metadata to the raw image or you can start all over from scratch if you like. So no, it is not like film or the other HD formats you have shot in where drastic color correction fixing potentially harms the image quality. I agree with your scolding to Kyle that he needs to be careful with online information and take it all with a grain of salt. Never lazily take someone's opinion as fact and always do your own research. Ironically you just proved your own point in the same posting.
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#11 Robert Skates

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 07:16 PM

Karl, your answer to Kyle's question was condescending, and WRONG. Perhaps worst of all, your response to a question beyond your knowledge was RUDE to both Kyle and the other forum members whose experience far exceeds your own. An apology is in order Karl. Too long I have sat back and let unearned arrogance go unchecked.
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#12 K Borowski

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 07:55 PM

:huh:

When you've seen one, you've seen them all. Feel free to disregard my advice, but do so at your own risk.

I've seen no evidence that all of you aren't 15-y.o.s with far too much free time on your hands.
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#13 Robert Skates

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 09:03 PM

:huh:

When you've seen one, you've seen them all. Feel free to disregard my advice, but do so at your own risk.

I've seen no evidence that all of you aren't 15-y.o.s with far too much free time on your hands.


Karl,
Your arrogance may well be earned. Perhaps you have years of experience. Your rudeness might have clouded my impression of you. So, as an apology, I have included a link to your IMDB page so that all those you have insulted will be dazzled and humbled by your numerous impressive credits.

http://www.imdb.com/... ...amp;x=0&y=0
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#14 Hal Smith

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 10:39 PM

:huh:

When you've seen one, you've seen them all. Feel free to disregard my advice, but do so at your own risk.

I've seen no evidence that all of you aren't 15-y.o.s with far too much free time on your hands.


Karl,

You're getting periously close to being this year's winner of the Phil Rhodes Trophy for Excessive Negativity. In truth Phil has mellowed a bunch in the last year or so, we may have to rename it the Karl Borowski TEN.

PS: I've never had my hands on a RED but know what it means to say a camera records in RAW format. Simply put, that means storing the data before any internal digital signal processing has had a crack at it.
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#15 K Borowski

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:23 AM

Karl,
Your arrogance may well be earned. Perhaps you have years of experience. Your rudeness might have clouded my impression of you. So, as an apology, I have included a link to your IMDB page so that all those you have insulted will be dazzled and humbled by your numerous impressive credits.

http://www.imdb.com/... ...amp;x=0&y=0


Haha, OK, OK, I'll come clean:" I dropped the "O" from my first name when I emigrated out of Poland after the war :P I got sick of writing stupid Polish movies, so I jumped ship at that point and decided to go into Cinematography.

But, let's just get something clear Robert: I'm not an arrogant butt. Don't confuse brutal honestly with arrogance. Sorry, if this is off the bend-over-backwards buttering up that other people do, but I've never been good at brown-nosing over the internet.

Hey, congratulations though, usually sarcasm over the internet is difficult to detect, but youd did a sterling job with trying to embarass me by pointing out that the student films I've helped out with aren't included on a less-than-complete movie website, written by students in their spare time. Maybe you REALLY want to do a good job at it thouguh, and put me in my place. Maybe you should "Google" my name, or even better, shell out $10 and do a background check on me. If you do the former though, you'll cast into doubt for me again whether you aren't a 15-y.o. after all though. So be careful.

In the interim, I am going to continue to speak my mind and be brutally honest. I would have had the same reaction were this a question of someone shooting 500T stock, uncorrected in daylight. Funny how the most animosity always seem to errupt when I try to gently chide RED fanboys.

Good to see your $15,000 goes not just towards a second-rate camera, but also gains you membership into a cool internet clique, even more sheek and exclusive than MySpace!

Alright, this concludes my participation in this thread. F*ck you very much!
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#16 K Borowski

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:28 AM

PS: I've never had my hands on a RED but know what it means to say a camera records in RAW format. Simply put, that means storing the data before any internal digital signal processing has had a crack at it.


Gee Hal, this isn't your style. Normally you just take a really cool attitude towards me, or ignore me altogether. Good for you for mustering a counter-attack!

There are a lot of people that seem convinced that this camera does not shoot RAW. It is actually a file of a size comparable to JPEG-2000, covered up by a lot of proprietary software.

In any case, even if it were real RAW files, they can only be corrected to a certain extent. My advice remains the same.


OK, now I really am done though. Good luck to the author of this thread working with a camera he knows nothing about and is clearly unqualified to use. Maybe he will give all of you credits as PAs for his movie. :rolleyes:
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#17 Mike Thorn

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 04:24 PM

OK, now I really am done though. Good luck to the author of this thread working with a camera he knows nothing about and is clearly unqualified to use. Maybe he will give all of you credits as PAs for his movie. :rolleyes:

I have reported this thread. I believe it has degraded to ungentlemanly and unsportsmanlike behavior which does not belong here.

We are professionals. This is not professional behavior.
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#18 John Brawley

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 05:04 PM

Gee Hal, this isn't your style. Normally you just take a really cool attitude towards me, or ignore me altogether. Good for you for mustering a counter-attack!

There are a lot of people that seem convinced that this camera does not shoot RAW. It is actually a file of a size comparable to JPEG-2000, covered up by a lot of proprietary software.



Karl, Red have as much acknowledged I think that they use a wavelet based compression to store the raw sensor data. Although you may have an issue with compression, it doesn't change the fact that it's raw sensor data being stored. Compression and sensor data are separate issues.


In any case, even if it were real RAW files, they can only be corrected to a certain extent. My advice remains the same.


Well what do you think happens inside a HD camera with electronic white balance ? The same correction is applied. The sensor will have a native colour temperature and if you shoot outside of it, then you're doing the same thing. With Red the camera's image data is stored with a flag that suggests what the whitepoint should be but you can change it in post and it would be no different to having changed it at the point of photography (optical filtration issues aside).

OK, now I really am done though. Good luck to the author of this thread working with a camera he knows nothing about and is clearly unqualified to use. Maybe he will give all of you credits as PAs for his movie. :rolleyes:


Karl you yourself said you haven't used the camera, but you're dishing out advice which shows you yourself don't actually understand the camera's workflow. May I suggest you're less qualified that the original poster to actually comment and then throw a tantrum when other opinions contradict your own ?

Karl it's just an online forum of opinion. We're all smart enough to know that nobody has all the answers. We may not always agree but we can at least try to be civil to each other. I've certainly had moments that I wasn't proud of but the agro just isn't worth it.


jb
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