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What lubricant or oil do I use?


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#1 Steve Zimmerman

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:56 AM

I was planning on taking my 400ft mags apart and lubing the gears before taking my first shots with my 1M repaired by Bernie at Super16inc. These mags have not been used for at least 3 years and anything to make my camera less noisy is always appreciated. What should I use for lubricant? I don't want to use sewing machine oil and have it run all over.

I read in another thread about an Eyemo to use synthetic clock oil:
http://www.ofrei.com/page246.html

I did not see anything like that at Filmtools.com
http://search.store....a...x=14&go.y=5

If anyone has the complete version of this guide (even just a text version) to lubing the mags, it would be greatly appreciated. I read it a couple years ago and it figures when I finally get ready to shoot something it's gone :-(.
http://web.archive.o...admin/mag_lube/

What do you guys recommend?

Thanks,
Steve Zimmerman

Edited by Steve Zimmerman, 05 April 2009 - 11:59 AM.

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#2 Steve Zimmerman

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:04 PM

I tried using my roommate's thickest gun grease:
http://www.midwayusa...ctNumber=573734
I'll see how this works.

I still only know how to get at the main gears behind the big panel with all the screws. I don't know how to get at the bearings for the rollers.
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#3 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 04:31 AM

I, personally, dude, don't screw with the mechanics. Bruce at Aranda has my PII and I let the professionals do the work. To me, it's not worth messing up something just to save a few bucks in maintenance costs. Think of it this way, you screw up the mag and you may screw up irreplaceable footage or damage the camera. I'm cheap, but even I won't scrimp on maintenance. Just send them to Bruce or Bernie and let them do the job right.
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#4 Steve Zimmerman

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:55 AM

Thanks for the nice and honest reply. B)

I called Bernie and he said I did the right thing.

He feels just about any high quality grease is fine. I'll probably send my mags off to him to be completely overhauled in a few months anyway.

Thanks again,
Steve

Edited by Steve Zimmerman, 06 April 2009 - 10:56 AM.

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#5 Hal Smith

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 02:54 PM

I did some research on lube for my Arri, Tim Carroll clued me in that Arri uses something called "Catenera". I tracked it down, it's a product sold by Kluber Lubrication and is a mix of natural and synthetic greases. Kluber describes it as "For friction points in precision machinery. Suitable for machines and equipment in the food processing and pharmaceutical industries". Being rated for food and drug equipment informs me that it's highly refined and very carefully controlled in manufacture.

Kluber calls it "Catenera KSB8" and it's available from Kluber USA for close to $25 for 50g which is a lifetime supply around a movie camera.

KLUBER LUBRICATION NORTH AMERICA L.P.
Judy Antonucci
Customer Service Representative
32 Industrial Drive; Londonderry, NH 03053
(T) 603.647.4104 ext. 170
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#6 Tim Carroll

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 03:56 PM

I did some research on lube for my Arri, Tim Carroll clued me in that Arri uses something called "Catenera". I tracked it down, it's a product sold by Kluber Lubrication and is a mix of natural and synthetic greases. Kluber describes it as "For friction points in precision machinery. Suitable for machines and equipment in the food processing and pharmaceutical industries". Being rated for food and drug equipment informs me that it's highly refined and very carefully controlled in manufacture.

Kluber calls it "Catenera KSB8" and it's available from Kluber USA for close to $25 for 50g which is a lifetime supply around a movie camera.

KLUBER LUBRICATION NORTH AMERICA L.P.
Judy Antonucci
Customer Service Representative
32 Industrial Drive; Londonderry, NH 03053
(T) 603.647.4104 ext. 170



Just so we are all clear, I DO NOT know if what Hal found is the same lubricant that I use. The lubricant I use is from ARRI and is called Isoflex Catenera. I don't know where ARRI gets it, it may be the stuff Hal found. And the only part of the camera I use that lubricant on is the interface where the turret turns on the camera housing. That lubricant is too thick and "stringy" to use anywhere else on the camera. I certainly would not use it anywhere near the camera movement or any of the drive sprockets. I have four totally different lubes that I get from ARRI that I use on different parts of the Arriflex 16S and 35 IIC cameras. One is a super fine oil, almost like water, one is a thicker oil, almost like 3-in-1, one is the Isoflex Catenera, and one is the special ARRI grease. The Arriflex 16SR series cameras use entirely different types of lubricants from the ones used on the 16S and 35 IIC.

Each camera is different. I would talk to someone who services the Konvas 1M camera and ask them what lubricants they use.

Best,
-Tim
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#7 Hal Smith

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 04:41 PM

Just so we are all clear, I DO NOT know if what Hal found is the same lubricant that I use. The lubricant I use is from ARRI and is called Isoflex Catenera. I don't know where ARRI gets it, it may be the stuff Hal found. And the only part of the camera I use that lubricant on is the interface where the turret turns on the camera housing. That lubricant is too thick and "stringy" to use anywhere else on the camera. I certainly would not use it anywhere near the camera movement or any of the drive sprockets. I have four totally different lubes that I get from ARRI that I use on different parts of the Arriflex 16S and 35 IIC cameras. One is a super fine oil, almost like water, one is a thicker oil, almost like 3-in-1, one is the Isoflex Catenera, and one is the special ARRI grease. The Arriflex 16SR series cameras use entirely different types of lubricants from the ones used on the 16S and 35 IIC.

Each camera is different. I would talk to someone who services the Konvas 1M camera and ask them what lubricants they use.

Best,
-Tim


One of the Kluber product engineers got wind of my original request and let the rep I was talking to know that Catenera KSB8 WAS specified for turret lubrication among other applications. You're exactly right that there's a spectrum of lubricants for cameras, KSB8 is for applications where you want the lube to stay in place, like gear teeth surfaces, turret faces, etc. It would not be right for everywhere like a precision sleeve bearing with very tight tolerances. I should have been more specific about what KSB8 is designed for.

In truth much about lubrication comes down to the quality of the lubricant's themselves, when a manufacturer specs certain lubes they're usually making certain that someone doesn't do something stupid like buy some 3-in-1 at the hardware store and lubricate their watch with it. The basic lubrication spectrum is thin oils to get into tight spaces, surface lubes that stay put, extreme pressure lubes (I suspect the cardiod pulldown in a IIC requires an EP lube), lubes that carry heat away, and lubes for areas that aren't finely machined. Then there's variations of each of those for different materials, steel, stainless steel, brass, aluminum, etc. The bottom line is that if you explain exactly what it is you're trying to lubricate; application, what manufacturing precision, materials used, temperature range, etc. to a hi-tech company like Kluber they're going to know what you need...that's their stock in trade, really understanding lubrication systems.

Kluber is the kind of company that when you have a lubrication failure in a system, you can send the failed parts to them and within a few days they get back with you and tell you what lube you should be using. When I was racing sports cars I had a problem keeping bearing in my Lotus Lightweight Racing Elan's camshaft bearings. I sent a cam and a trashed bearing to Valvoline and a week later they called back recommending that I use a high Molydenum Disulphide bearing assembly grease, I was using an MS2 assembly lube on the cam lobes but not the bearings. Cosworth was using something like that in cam bearing assembly but Lotus didn't spec that in their manuals so when an engine was taken apart and put back together again the bearing galled for the first few seconds of operation. Kluber told me that they're making a transmission lube that halves the lost power in a manual gearbox...the Nascar troops are all over that product.
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#8 John Sprung

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 04:57 PM

The other real important thing is speed. The faster a mechanism has to go, the more demanding it is on its lubricants. A lubricant that's perfect for 24 fps can be way too stiff and load the works too much at 360 fps.

The II-C cam uses a special Arri grease. I don't think it's all that extreme, it's not like the load on, say, a Boschhammer. The two greases look and feel similar, there's no way to tell without reading the labels.

That transmission lube sounds like it would be good for gas mileage, maybe the CFL bulb environmental types might be interested.

As for the original question, I'd ask Anatoly at Slow Motion Inc. He's the Konvas guy out here.

http://www.slowmotio...com/contact.htm





-- J.S.
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#9 Tim Carroll

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 05:11 PM

The II-C cam uses a special Arri grease. I don't think it's all that extreme, it's not like the load on, say, a Boschhammer. The two greases look and feel similar, there's no way to tell without reading the labels.


John,

Not sure which two greases you are saying look and feel similar? I'm assuming you don't mean the ARRI grease and the Isoflex Catenera, as they are entirely different.

Hal,

I'm not sure about this statement, "KSB8 is for applications where you want the lube to stay in place, like gear teeth surfaces, turret faces, etc.", although I have not used the Kluber product. But the Isoflex is not stringy so that it stays in place, it is pretty much trapped in place by the design of the turret. It is stringy and like honey so that it gives drag on the turret when you are turning it from detent to detent. Isoflex is a lubricant with drag, if that makes sense.

Best,
-Tim
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#10 Hal Smith

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:03 PM

John,

Not sure which two greases you are saying look and feel similar? I'm assuming you don't mean the ARRI grease and the Isoflex Catenera, as they are entirely different.

Hal,

I'm not sure about this statement, "KSB8 is for applications where you want the lube to stay in place, like gear teeth surfaces, turret faces, etc.", although I have not used the Kluber product. But the Isoflex is not stringy so that it stays in place, it is pretty much trapped in place by the design of the turret. It is stringy and like honey so that it gives drag on the turret when you are turning it from detent to detent. Isoflex is a lubricant with drag, if that makes sense.

Best,
-Tim


Stringy isn't what's needed, what's need is a lube that doesn't migrate since there's no seal around the turret lip to keep the grease in place. For instance: If one were to use a pure silcone lube on the turret face, in a few weeks/months it would be gone. Pure silicones creep, CKSB8 is designed not to do that. The reason the turrent has some drag is because the lube there can't be low viscosity, it'd creep out if it was.

What color is Arri's turret grease? CKSB8 is a translucent amber color smeared out on a piece of white paper
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#11 Steve Zimmerman

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:41 PM

WOW! the threat suddenly explodes with replies, and informative ones. Thanks guys! I'm sure this be helpful to others too.

Just to wrap this up with me, Bernie said to use ARRI III grease. I will remove the gun grease and add the ARRI grease when I get it.

Thanks,
Steve Zimmerman
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#12 Tim Carroll

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:44 PM

If one were to use a pure silcone lube on the turret face, in a few weeks/months it would be gone. Pure silicones creep.


A rule I live by is NEVER use any silicone lubricant ANYWHERE around any camera lens or optical units. If it gets on the optical elements, you're screwed.

I was trained in servicing the Arriflex cameras by an ARRI engineer who worked at the factory in Germany in the 1950's and 1960's. He told me that ARRI used the Isoflex Catenera grease on the turret specifically to give the turret the feeling of smooth drag as it was rotated from one detent to the next detent. You could put ARRI grease or even Vaseline in there and it would not migrate out. But ARRI specifically wanted that feel on the turret, which is why they went with the Isoflex.

The Isoflex Catenera looks like thick honey. Yes it is an amber color. Which is why it's referred to as "honey grease" by the old time Arriflex techs.

Best,
-Tim
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#13 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:26 AM

Good information.

At first, i recommed to read of original user manual and original technical information of manufacturer of Konvas camera.
The originaluser manual told about re-lube of parts of filmmagazine of ball bearing, gears, surfaces of friction bearing of russian consistent fat BHII HP-271.

This is special consistent fat for hih speed ball bearing of small micro DC motors with speed up to 30000 rpm, with very small moment of resistance at start, with operating temperature -60..+130C,
The life time of small ball bearing with operating temperature +50C, at speed up to 6000rpm - 20000 hours.

The analog of grease must be suitable for plain and rolling bearings operating at low temperature and at high speeds for spindle bearings in precision and optical equipment.
Service temperature range -60..-50C up to 120..130C,
Working penetration at 25C, near 310-340,
Base oil viscisity, at 0C - neat 75, at 40C near 20, at 100'C- near 4.
Drop point, more 170C

From other side, the film magazine of cine camera - precision device and precision mechanism.
A some parts of film magazine need of re-lube, other parts need of full cleaning ( friction coupling),
a some parts need of special tools for take to pieces.
A some parts ask of detailed inspection on surface deterioration.
Do not need forget about springs, surfaces of film channel and clamping plate.

The service of film magazine do not re-lube only, this is test and adjust procedures too.
That's why, thre real high quliaty service can make of experienced camera technician.

Any case, you can study of design of film magazine and crete of personal technology of service and lube.
But, you must be ready to search of a some spare parts, after, the your technology of take to pieces of part will wrong and the part can be broken.
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#14 Tim Carroll

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:07 AM

Olex brings up a very good point. I did not read the original post carefully. Since the question is about servicing a film camera magazine, take up torque needs to be addressed as well. Once everything is cleaned, and the proper parts lubricated, then the take-up torque must be adjusted so the film takes up properly and doesn't pull too tight or not pull tight enough.

With the ARRI cameras we use a special gage, and the magazines have an adjustment on each spindle. Not sure how that is done on a 1M magazine.

Best,
-Tim
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#15 John Sprung

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 02:42 PM

Not sure which two greases you are saying look and feel similar?


Arri grease and Bosch rotary hammer grease. You put a little dab on the back of the bit or chisel before you put it in the chuck.

http://www.boschtool...px?pid=11316EVS




-- J.S.
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#16 Hal Smith

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:51 PM

This is special consistent fat for hih speed ball bearing of small micro DC motors with speed up to 30000 rpm, with very small moment of resistance at start, with operating temperature -60..+130C,
The life time of small ball bearing with operating temperature +50C, at speed up to 6000rpm - 20000 hours.

The analog of grease must be suitable for plain and rolling bearings operating at low temperature and at high speeds for spindle bearings in precision and optical equipment.
Service temperature range -60..-50C up to 120..130C,
Working penetration at 25C, near 310-340,
Base oil viscisity, at 0C - neat 75, at 40C near 20, at 100'C- near 4.
Drop point, more 170C


Oleg is quoting lubricant technical characteristics which a lubrication engineer would understand and be able to recommend a suitable lube. It's rocket science in a way but people successfully launch rockets all the time...unless they're North Korean. I'm not trying to dis everyone who prefers to use a manufacturer's inhouse lube products, it's just that Arri isn't a lubrication company, they're a camera company and they buy their lubes and greases from someone else...I suspect Kluber since Isoflex is one of Kluber's trade names.
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#17 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:43 AM

...I suspect Kluber since Isoflex is one of Kluber's trade names.


And this it is correct.
We have two ways.
or use of original russian grease,or search of West analog.
I think, Klube must have grease with chemical and physical characteristics similar of original russian grease. Need to choose of best analog.
That's why, I show of characteristics of grease from russian documentation.

About idea of Tim
"With the ARRI cameras we use a special gage, and the magazines have an adjustment on each spindle. Not sure how that is done on a 1M magazine."
And this it is correct.
The 200 ft and 400 ft film magazines of Konvas have friction coupling and the friction coupling must be adjust on fixed value of antitorque moment , for 200 ft magazine -300..350 gramme on centimeter, for
400 ft magazine 1150..1260 gr/sm

The feed reel must have antitorque moment, for 200 ft magazine , 60..80 gramme on lever 12.5 mm.
for 400 ft, 60-80 gr/ 25 mm
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#18 Tim Carroll

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:35 AM

About idea of Tim
"With the ARRI cameras we use a special gage, and the magazines have an adjustment on each spindle. Not sure how that is done on a 1M magazine."
And this it is correct.
The 200 ft and 400 ft film magazines of Konvas have friction coupling and the friction coupling must be adjust on fixed value of antitorque moment , for 200 ft magazine -300..350 gramme on centimeter, for
400 ft magazine 1150..1260 gr/sm

The feed reel must have antitorque moment, for 200 ft magazine , 60..80 gramme on lever 12.5 mm.
for 400 ft, 60-80 gr/ 25 mm


Olex,

On the ARRI magazines I was referring to, the torque must be set on the feed and take-up spindles because they are forward and reversing magazines. Ergo, the feed and take-up spindles "switch places" during forward and reverse operation.

Best,
-Tim

PS: Hal, I know ARRI buys their lubricants from different suppliers, and I'm confident that the lube you bought from Kluber is the Isoflex Catenera that I get from ARRI. What I was trying to point out is that Isoflex is only one of five different lubes used on the motion picture camera. There is no one lube that works for all the different parts. To set the camera up the way it was designed to be set up, you need all the different viscosity oils and greases that the factory used on the different "systems" of the camera when it was designed and built.
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#19 Hal Smith

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 09:51 PM

PS: Hal, I know ARRI buys their lubricants from different suppliers, and I'm confident that the lube you bought from Kluber is the Isoflex Catenera that I get from ARRI. What I was trying to point out is that Isoflex is only one of five different lubes used on the motion picture camera. There is no one lube that works for all the different parts. To set the camera up the way it was designed to be set up, you need all the different viscosity oils and greases that the factory used on the different "systems" of the camera when it was designed and built.


We're probably 90% in agreement and debating fine points that only mechanical geeks get interested in. I do think there's good reason for a little lube intelligence gathering, I doubt that Arri sells 50 grams of Catenera for $25 or so. On the subject, have you ever tried to figure out what Arri grease is? The stuff I believe is used on the cardiod cams?

When I get a chance I think I'll get in touch with my contact at Kluber and see if they'll let me talk to the lube engineer who knew that Catenera was, among other things, spec'd for camera turrets. That engineer may also know something about other camera lubes.

Sincerely,

Hal
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#20 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 04:21 AM

Additional information.

I check of user manuals and factory drafts of Konvas camera.

The last editions of user manuals of Konvas-2M ( 1990 ) told about modern russian consistent fat BHII HP-271.
This is high quality special, low themperature ( -60..+130C ) grease.

The original factory drafts of film magazines fromMoskinap ( number 1KCP-1M-03.000) wrote:
..The all gears , ball bearing and rubbing surfaces to grease of consistent fat OKB-122-7.
OKB-122-7 is multi-purpose, with preservative agent, consistent fat , with
operating temperature -40..+100C,
to use at aircraft DC motor bearing, coordinate boring machine, precision ball bearing.
To have base oil viscisity, at -40C - 1800, at 0C - 500, at 50'C- 1,2.

Other technical books wrote about new version of consistent fat " ERA" ( TU 38.101950-83).
This is grease of new generation, have operating temperature -60...+120 C and have moder formula from "Ceatim-201", and better from "Ceatim-221" and "OKB-122-7".
Era use at friction bearing, ball bearings, gear box of control of aircraft.

I have, this information can help.
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