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clean whites at music video shot with red


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#1 Ram Shani

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:14 AM

i am about to shoot my first music video with red one

we shoot in a pool at the back of a house.

the house is off white.

the floor is dark wood.

at the pool we will have colored toys(ball,mattresses,water guns)

the singer and the girls will be in white suite and swimming suits

i want the clip to have a very clean whites

and crispy image

it's a parody on hip hop videos

at the end one of the hot girl's is going out of the water and slip on the floor

and there is blood every where

any tips will be great

thanksPosted Image
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#2 John Sprung

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:51 AM

Shoot and color time some tests. Test skin tones against the white fabrics you plan to use, and also against grayed down white fabrics. Graying down whites to keep them in range is an old old trick, used since the early days of Technicolor.





-- J.S.
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#3 Ram Shani

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 02:46 PM

i wish i had the time or the possibility to preform tests
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#4 Petros Nousias

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:24 AM

I shot a commercial last year with similar setup. I used a cooke 18-100 and found out it portholes a bit(at least in my camera) so we had to to some masking during colour. I would also avoid other lenses that are known to porthole(any of the 2.1 zeiss wides for example)
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#5 Oli Soravia

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:58 AM

i am about to shoot my first music video with red one

we shoot in a pool at the back of a house.

the house is off white.

the floor is dark wood.

at the pool we will have colored toys(ball,mattresses,water guns)

the singer and the girls will be in white suite and swimming suits

i want the clip to have a very clean whites

and crispy image

it's a parody on hip hop videos

at the end one of the hot girl's is going out of the water and slip on the floor

and there is blood every where

any tips will be great

thanksPosted Image




Hi, expose your whites not higher than 2 stops, don`t let the blacks go deeper than 2,5 stops, than you have enough detail on both sides of the curve to correct the look you look for in the final color correction. >Best, OLI
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#6 Ram Shani

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 08:54 AM

only 4.5 stop latitude??

why?

the red has something like 11 -12 stop latitude
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#7 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:42 AM

Watch out with whites on the Red. Even though the traffic lights on the monitor say you're fine, in my experience you may still lose out in
the brightest parts. White should obviously be white, so there's no need to cover for everything, but it's good to have that in the back of your head.
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#8 K Borowski

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:52 AM

only 4.5 stop latitude??

why?

the red has something like 11 -12 stop latitude


You don't want/have time to do tests, and you are going to blindly trust manufacturing data?

Kodak used to rate films faster than they actually were. This industry is still full of hype (Kodak still over-rates stocks).

You want clean whites, so the narrower range is to comply with your request for that.
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#9 Ram Shani

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 11:22 PM

thanks

i am not going blind
i talk with a lot of DP here how test the cam and with the rental house rep how did test with control environment
they say in 10 stop range i will be safe
i will try to test next week:)
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#10 K Borowski

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 11:37 PM

they say in 10 stop range i will be safe
i will try to test next week:)


Please don't interpret what I said earlier as hostility. Sorry if I came off that way.

Just, yeah, you can get away with a ten stop range, but in order for CLEAN whites, you have to keep to a tighter range.

We're assuming you're tallking abuot a pure white, not an off white.

Same thing holds true when you're shooting someone in front of a white background. Even with film it's very tricky. Too much exposure, you'll get halation. Too little, you'll get dirty whites.

So there's a very fine range where you can get a pure clean white.


I agree, too, don't trust a monitor, especially an LCD. They often look fine, while the actual images do not.
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#11 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 01:06 AM

What ASA will you be rating the camera at? At 320ASA, Build 17, sunny day exterior and no 85 filter, I find I'm just holding highlights 4 stops over. There's definitely more usable range in the shadows, 5 stops maybe. Again, Build 17 is pretty noise free in sunny day exterior situations, but it gets noisy quickly in darker scenes. In my experience under direct sun, white and near-white subjects (even light caucasian skin) can often reflect more than 4 stops over, so you'll be fighting exposure under those conditions. Best plan to silk as much as possible, fill as much as possible, and hopefully see about graying down the suits like John says.

You may find that you'll clip faster in the red channel, then the green, then the blue last. I really haven't noticed this tinting the color of the clipped whites at all. I would still avoid clipping as much as possible because trying to recover highlights in post usually creates ugly color banding on the edge of the clipped areas which looks horrible. Maybe look into using lower contrast lenses like the Superspeeds (at or wider than T2.8) or Ultracon filters, or slight diffusion like a Black Promist to soften the edge of the clip.
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#12 Ram Shani

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 09:32 AM

Karl- i am totally not take your words as hostility:)

Satsuki - why use 85 if the red is 5600k?

i am rating it 320ASA

thanks for all the tips

ps

i can't gray out a 1000$ suite on a 7000$ budget video:)
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#13 K Borowski

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 10:30 AM

i can't gray out a 1000$ suite on a 7000$ budget video:)


Right!

Yeah, the hassle of getting the whites just right is well worth it when you consider the hassle you're saving yourself from in a telecine suite.
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#14 John Sprung

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 11:51 AM

i can't gray out a 1000$ suite on a 7000$ budget video:)


This budget is way wrong. You need to get some money out of wardrobe and give it to grip and electric. Double nets on C-stands, light a little on the hard side.... At least you have the advantage of pulling some full resolution stills and seeing what you actually have.




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#15 Ram Shani

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 02:41 PM

the suite is not from the budget and so are the swimsuits for the girls

i will have:

4k par hmi

8*8 6*6 with light grid, gold reflector
foam core
4*4 mirror
stands
c-stands
4*4 gobo, wd, net

steadicam
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#16 Jamie Metzger

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 11:14 PM

white shirts outside are never a good idea for any format, without the proper grippage.
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#17 Ram Shani

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 02:15 AM

tell me about it:)
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#18 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 02:55 AM

Satsuki - why use 85 if the red is 5600k?

The sensor is 5000K native. Under normal daylight conditions where the red and green channels clip faster than the blue, using an 85 would just decrease exposure and thus increase noise in the blue channel. So you're right, there's no point to doing it unless the the ambient daylight is so blue that you find you're oversaturating the blue channel first and need to warm up the image beyond what the camera can white balance to. On a recent test shoot, I ended up setting the WB to 7000K in camera which looked good in the EVF but was too warm on a calibrated monitor in post. Ended up settling around 6000K for most of the shots.
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#19 Gregory Middleton

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 12:39 AM

Try using the Histogram to see when your whites are starting to clip. Try and keep all 3 channels from clipping ( especially the Blue)
Even if you don't have a lot of money for Color Correction its pretty easy to balance your whites if they are not all clipped. The RED camera can leave lots of nasty looking stuff at the edges of whites clipping. If you can get them to 90% is easy to time them up a bit to the level of White which you choose.

Shoot at 4k(or the 2x HD res for easy conversion). More info leads to cleaner images.

If you want your Whites very clean also desaturate them in Color as well. This can really help.

Good Luck on your shoot.



i am about to shoot my first music video with red one

we shoot in a pool at the back of a house.

the house is off white.

the floor is dark wood.

at the pool we will have colored toys(ball,mattresses,water guns)

the singer and the girls will be in white suite and swimming suits

i want the clip to have a very clean whites

and crispy image

it's a parody on hip hop videos

at the end one of the hot girl's is going out of the water and slip on the floor

and there is blood every where

any tips will be great

thanksPosted Image


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#20 Ram Shani

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 02:31 AM

thank you all for a good advices:)

i just got back from the shoot.

i worked very simple with 320ASA and 5600k. with pola and ND6/9

i didn't even touch the manual to adjust to color and contrast.

it look great on the view finder and monitor at red space.

i had cloudy day so i decided to work with the sun always at back light and bounce to the faces (white and gold)

and exposed the faces 1/2 stop under

every time the sun went behind the clouds i used my HIM 2.5 PAR as back light

i think it work great

even wutching the playback on monitor i saw every ditaile at the whites so i figure at the raw hold every thing even more

looking foreword to go to the CC see it on monitor
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