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received some 'old stock' how to store and what to expect


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#1 JohnSellers

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 01:45 PM

Hey Guys,

I've read the Kodak website and some older posts regarding this topic but they didn't fully answer my questions and raised a couple of new ones.

Recently I have acquired some different 35mm and 16mm film stocks from a friend who saved a whole bunch of film from shows he had worked on and hasn't ever used. He never stored any of it in the fridge but put the rolls in an Esky (icebox) and put it in a dark cool dry cellar type of a room. We are from sunny Australia so summer temps can get up to the mid-high 30's sometimes 40s (degrees, celsius) or 85-105 Fahrenheit.

He gave me around 1500ft of 16mm 200T (7217) short ends ranging from 40ft-100ft each dating back to December 2006. I also got given a couple of factory sealed 400ft cans of 35mm (200T/5217, 250D/5205) a 50D(5201) recan as well as a recan and 300ft shortend of 16mm 250D(7205) all from march 2008.

I think I'm going to freeze all the sealed cans as I do not know when I will use it, probably not in the next 3 months anyway. I'm thinking all the march 08 stock should be ok. I have heard about how you shouldn't freeze or fridge short ends and re-cans because of condensation problems. What are your opinions and recommendations on this? Has anyone done this and had any problems? Should I freeze all the stock I got given?

Also on the note of freezing I read about putting them in ziplock bags before freezing. Do you just ziplock the can or do you go into your change tent and ziplock the black bag and re-seal the can? If the latter is the case I would assume you don't bother doing that for new sealed 400ft cans.

Now the 200T from December 2006 I wouldn't be surprised if it had some side effects, but what would I expect and how would I combat any issues when shooting? Overexposing slightly? I was thinking that before shooting I should maybe get a dip test of 1 of the rolls and maybe shoot a controlled test like a colour chart to see any effects. Any other suggestions?

Lastly, I heard that I need to allow adequate time to let it thaw out, ranging from 1-3 hours. If I took them out of the freezer a day or 2 before I was shooting would that be sufficient and not cause any problems? Anything different to allow for the shortends and recans? Any other things to be aware of for when I do need to do this?

One last question, is it bad to freeze film, thaw it out for the period of a shoot (a couple of days) and if you don't shoot it to re-freeze it?

Thanks in advance to any questions you can answer, I know there is a fair range of questions there and any information on any of the freezing process or any other information I should be made aware of will be greatly appreciated. I Look forward to hearing from you soon!

John.
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#2 K Borowski

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 02:43 PM

We are from sunny Australia so summer temps can get up to the mid-high 30's sometimes 40s (degrees, celsius) or 85-105 Fahrenheit.


You made a mistake here: You are supposed to use Fahrenheit to begin with and convert *that* to Celsius :P Celsius works fine in a lab, but works like s&*% anywhere else. . .

Remember: Foot, pounds, nautical miles, and degrees Fahrenheit/Rankine are the only units that have been to the moon B)

I have heard about how you shouldn't freeze or fridge short ends and re-cans because of condensation problems.


Put it in double plastic bags to be on the safe side (that's what I always do), outside of the can, and you'll be fine. IDK though, with 400-foot cans, can you *get* bags that big down under?


Also on the note of freezing I read about putting them in ziplock bags before freezing. Do you just ziplock the can or do you go into your change tent and ziplock the black bag and re-seal the can? If the latter is the case I would assume you don't bother doing that for new sealed 400ft cans.


Just the outside of the can being in a baggie will be fine. The condensation problems come when the film isn't separated from room-temperature air. The cold air inside of the bags doesn't condense as long as it is sealed.

I wouldn't trust the Kodak tape either. When in doubt, add another bag. "Can't hurt, might help." is the phrase you want to repeat to yourself. It never helps to be too meticulous here. Plastic is cheap.

Now the 200T from December 2006 I wouldn't be surprised if it had some side effects, but what would I expect and how would I combat any issues when shooting? Overexposing slightly? I was thinking that before shooting I should maybe get a dip test of 1 of the rolls and maybe shoot a controlled test like a colour chart to see any effects. Any other suggestions?


Since it's only from '06, yeah, you can clip test some of it, but since it's all stored in the same conditions, I'd just clip each stock type once. Results should be comparable. But yes, give it a full stop of overexposure and you should be fine, or even 1-1/2. I've shot film over seven years out of date stored at room temperature, underrated two full stops and they were indistinguishable from new film. IDK if that would intercut perfectly with fresh stock though. That was all for one project.

Lastly, I heard that I need to allow adequate time to let it thaw out, ranging from 1-3 hours. If I took them out of the freezer a day or 2 before I was shooting would that be sufficient and not cause any problems? Anything different to allow for the shortends and recans? Any other things to be aware of for when I do need to do this?


It's 1 hour for 100 feet of 35mm, I think, so it'd be an hour per hundred feet. With 400 feet I'd budget four hours. EDIT, just making sure that anyone else reading this thread understands: I'm talking about *warm-up* time, not shooting time. . .

One last question, is it bad to freeze film, thaw it out for the period of a shoot (a couple of days) and if you don't shoot it to re-freeze it?


No, that is just fine, just as long as you give at least three hours when you dethaw again. This is what got me in trouble once. Never again. I've done crazy things to heat film that was frozen up in a hurry, like taking it in the shower (with a plastic bag still on of course) to heat it up more-quickly.

[. . . ], I know there is a fair range of questions there and any information on any of the freezing process or any other information I should be made aware of will be greatly appreciated.


It's not the amount of questions that is the problem, it's the insufficient amount of spacing out of ideas. I had to print the article out to read it comprehensively. If I were a fanboy I probably wouldn't have been bothered :P


Hope I've answered all of your questions.

Edited by Karl Borowski, 28 April 2009 - 02:46 PM.

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#3 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:56 PM

You made a mistake here: You are supposed to use Fahrenheit to begin with and convert *that* to Celsius :P Celsius works fine in a lab,


Funny, Celsius works fine here in Canada

Put it in double plastic bags to be on the safe side (that's what I always do), outside of the can, and you'll be fine. IDK though, with 400-foot cans, can you *get* bags that big down under?
The condensation problems come when the film isn't separated from room-temperature air. The cold air inside of the bags doesn't condense as long as it is sealed.


The issue is the air inside the bag having a higher level of condensation. the makers control the RH of the air inside the can, a recan may have higher Relative humidity.

Sealing as little air as possible reduces the chance that you will get condensation. The trick is to allow it to warm up to room temperature (20 - 25 C) before you let any air into the can.

Kodak used to have a recommendations based on coming from the fridge or the freezer. The time depends on the thickness of the package so they gave the time assuming each can was set up separatly on the counter. dig through the publications on the Kodak site and you will probably still be able to find the chart. I think it called for 11/2 hours for 16mm, and 3-5 hours for 35mm. for refrigerated film (4C) I normally plan to leave it out at least overnight.

try http://motion.kodak....ort_tib5202.pdf for an explanation

I've shot film over seven years out of date stored at room temperature, underrated two full stops and they were indistinguishable from new film. IDK if that would intercut perfectly with fresh stock though. That was all for one project.


Lots depends on the type (spped) of the film, 50D would probably be fine after 4 years, 500T might have some fog after 2.
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#4 K Borowski

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 09:15 PM

Funny, Celsius works fine here in Canada


:-P


On a more serious note, I can convert 4C, 20C, 25C fine in my head; most Americans can't. So, out of respect, it'd be nice to use both systems. 300 million people will thank you for it!

[39°F, 68°F, and 77°F]
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#5 K Borowski

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 09:28 PM

Lots depends on the type (spped) of the film, 50D would probably be fine after 4 years, 500T might have some fog after 2.


Sorry, I missed this.

It was 320D.
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#6 Hal Smith

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 10:26 AM

On the upside, having been stored in a cellar will have lessened any fogging due to background radiation unless you have a Radon problem where you live.

Karl,

Ever hear of someone using a vacuum Seal-a-Meal to store frozen film? You'd take the tape off the can, insert it in the Seal-a-Meal bag, and suck away. Then double bag it with black bag.
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#7 Hal Smith

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 10:26 AM

Forum popped up a "Flood Control" message, I reposted...and it uploaded two copies???
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#8 K Borowski

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 10:32 AM

Karl,

Ever hear of someone using a vacuum Seal-a-Meal to store frozen film? You'd take the tape off the can, insert it in the Seal-a-Meal bag, and suck away. Then double bag it with black bag.


No I haven't. Isn't that a bit of over-kill?

I try to push as much air out of the bag as I can when I double-bag the film, but it doesn't have to be a perfect vacuum.
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#9 Hal Smith

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 02:52 PM

On a more serious note, I can convert 4C, 20C, 25C fine in my head; most Americans can't. So, out of respect, it'd be nice to use both systems. 300 million people will thank you for it!
[39°F, 68°F, and 77°F]


Department of Mental Arithmetic:

Centigrade to Fahrenheit: (2 X C), subtract 10%, add 32.

Fahrenheit to Centigrade: F - 32, add 10%, divide by 2

Taught to me by a visiting British Physicist when I was teaching Physics at Sewanee. He could take a square root to four places in his head, had a bunch of tricks for logarithms, trig functions, etc. It's my understanding that mental arithmetic to this level is an old tradition in British Physics.
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#10 Dominic Case

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 05:59 PM

It's my understanding that mental arithmetic to this level is an old tradition in British Physics.

Well, having a Physics degree from a British university, I feel I have to respond, Hal.

At high school, (a long time ago in a galaxy far . . .) while some teachers prescribed writing lines (I must not x x x x x 100) as a mild punishment, our maths teacher required us to memorise a couple of square inches of log tables. (Un)fortunately I was either too well-behaved or I did my homework on time, because I left school without any real detailed knowledge of log tables apart from knowing how to look them up. I bought a slide rule for university, which had a whole bunch of conversion factors on the back.

Those on this list who aren't familiar with writing lines have probably never used log tables or a slide rule either, and would probably struggle using a calculator with reverse polish notation. You don't know what you've missed :rolleyes:

Remember: Foot, pounds, nautical miles, and degrees Fahrenheit/Rankine are the only units that have been to the moon

Wasn't it an American space thingy that crash landed into Mars or Venus or somewhere because some component bought in from Europe had been calibrated in metres instead of feet (or cubits or something).

I could live with the quaint US units if they were correct. But a pint isn't even a pint, a gallon isn't a gallon, and then there is the issue of spelling, and driving on the wrong side of the road.
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#11 Dominic Case

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 06:00 PM

The cold air inside of the bags doesn't condense as long as it is sealed.

This really isn't quite right. (well, it's plain WRONG. Sorry Karl.)

The small amount of air that you seal in (including what has diffused through the tape to inside the can itself), will produce condensation if you cool it such that the RH goes above 100%. So the humidity of the air when you seal the bag is what is critical. It's best to leave the can to stabilise in a cool and dry atmosphere, then seal in a bag, then freeze it.

Rule of thumb - if your glass of cold beer collects condensation on the outside, the air is too humid to freeze safely.
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#12 K Borowski

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 08:11 PM

Wasn't it an American space thingy that crash landed into Mars or Venus or somewhere because some component bought in from Europe had been calibrated in metres instead of feet (or cubits or something).

I could live with the quaint US units if they were correct. But a pint isn't even a pint, a gallon isn't a gallon, and then there is the issue of spelling, and driving on the wrong side of the road.


No, that had nothing to do with Imperial Units being "bad". It had to do with them not labelling units and I think McDonald Douglas using foot, pounds-thrust, and second measurement and NASA being metric.

Despite NASA being "all metric", my inside knowlege tells me that the shuttle is still all Imperial (though the space station is metric), and Marshall Spaceflight Center, in Huntsville Alabama, still stubbornly uses customary units only, and just converts them in the end, which is dangerous due to rounding; they ought to just let them use Imperial only.

The new Ares Five launch vehicle, designed by Marshall is measured in feet (although, even the Saturn V's stage seperators were 1 meter tall (3.3 feet on the charts)

To me it isn't the fault of either system, it is the fault of the engineers. Such a mistake could have just-as-easily been made with cm instead of mm.

We use the old Queen Anne Wine Gallon, not the Imperial Gallon. None-the-less, just remember 5/6, and you'll be pretty close.

The Imperial Gallon is 160 fl. oz. that are about 96% of a U.S. Fluid Ounce (~153.6 U.S. fl. oz).

Just remember that the U.S. Gal. is 8-1/3 lbs. and the Imperial Gallon is 10 and you'll be fine. . .

Of course, I always ask for beer by the Imperial pint at the local smoke-easy :-p
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#13 Hal Smith

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 08:40 PM

Rule of thumb - if your glass of cold beer collects condensation on the outside, the air is too humid to freeze safely.

Hence my wild haired idea to use a vacuum Seal-a-Meal (A US kitchen device that thermoseals a heavy duty freezer bag, the vacuum version pulls most of the air out of the bag before sealing it) to seal up film going in the freezer. If one worked out the details a small bag of silica gel tossed in with the film would dessicate whatever moisture was left behind. I buy industrial grade silica gel in bulk for client's transmission line dehydrators so I've always got some nice, bright blue beads around.

Reverse Polish? My desk calculator is a working HP-97 (and a working spare in storage), my briefcase calculator is a 48GX, my pride and joy collector's item is a mint 16C Programmer's calculator (will calculate in binary, octal, hex, and decimal and instantly convert between them). I think in Reverse Polish, when I use an algebraic calculator I always have to remind myself number...operation...number...operation...etc.

I can stumble around through decibel calculations in my head by remembering a few basic logs and some simple manipulation. Never got the built-in trig calculator up to speed other than a few sine/cosine/tangent values memorized.

Do you think that you and I have sufficiently lost the hoi polloi by now?
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#14 Dominic Case

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 10:20 PM

McDonald Douglas using foot, pounds-thrust, and second measurement


Would that be the McDonald Douglas Quarter-Pounder? Or some company related to McDonnell Douglas (Kirk Douglas perhaps?)

We use the old Queen Anne Wine Gallon

There's no hope really, is there. ;) Didn't you lot have a revolution to get rid of all that stuff? Or was it just the King George Tea Gallon that you threw overboard?

Wikipedia shows 16 different types of gallon, ranging between about 3 1/2 and 4/1/2 litres.

Whereas a litre is a litre. No confusion.

Mind you, the only beer you can get by the pint here is Guinness. Let's not go there :blink:
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#15 K Borowski

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 03:37 AM

Would that be the McDonald Douglas Quarter-Pounder? Or some company related to McDonnell Douglas (Kirk Douglas perhaps?)


There's no hope really, is there. ;) Didn't you lot have a revolution to get rid of all that stuff? Or was it just the King George Tea Gallon that you threw overboard?

Wikipedia shows 16 different types of gallon, ranging between about 3 1/2 and 4/1/2 litres.

Whereas a litre is a litre. No confusion.

Mind you, the only beer you can get by the pint here is Guinness. Let's not go there :blink:


Geez, that was an embarrassing typo. Yeah, they were measuring in "quarter-pounders" instead of "pounders" on the mission ;)


Get rid of the damned Queen, but God save the Imperial system!


The only two gallons that are used modern-day planet earth any more are the Imperial and Queen Anne Wine (U.S. Customary varieties).

As measuring something by volume is inherently inaccurate anyway (water is a different volume at different temperatures), the point is moot.

There is only one (current) pound. I have to admit, in some ways I would prefer that the U.S. had switched to one coherent Imperial Gallon too.

There are still vestigial uses of the dry quart (just a tad smaller than the Imperial variety, different than the U.S. Quart), and the bushel (8 dry Qt.) I HATE that crap; it is archaic and confusing and should be abolished.


IDK, Dominic. There is something very Orwellian about buying beer by the litre :D Perhaps for that very reason, the Imperial Pint is protected, probably for all time, in pubs throughout the rest of the Commonwealth, or so I hear.

Anyway, what were we talking about again? Film? Huh? B)
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#16 K Borowski

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 03:51 AM

There's no hope really, is there. Didn't you lot have a revolution to get rid of all that stuff? Or was it just the King George Tea Gallon that you threw overboard?

Wikipedia shows 16 different types of gallon, ranging between about 3 1/2 and 4/1/2 litres.

Whereas a litre is a litre. No confusion.

Sorry, I tried to tack this on the end of my last post but it wouldn't let me. I missed these three lines before. . .

I know you were just joking, but tea probably would have been measured by the ale gallon at that time, unless it was in its powder form where it would've been measured by the bushel the U.S. still (stupidly, I feel in this case) uses today :P

Remember Dominic, Wikipedia is written by a bunch of techie H.S. and College students with far too much free ttime on their hands.

God came down from Mt. Sinai and gave Queen Anne the Wine Gallon in 1531. It says so in the Bible. I have to find the book and vs., but I think it's somewhere in the New Testament. Don't know why that part isn't in Wikipedia.

As for British vs. American spelling (notice I said British; Canada also has slight variants from "proper English" - said with a trrrrilled "ahh"), I prefer a lot of the British spellings, so I just use them. Grey, theatre, and I'll usually throw a "u" in for endeavour. Of course the red lines this thing gives me when I do it are annoying.

With the exception of theatre though, -er instead of 're makes sense, as do the "z"s we use instead of "s"s(like realize). -Re is a holdover from French that isn't reflected in current pronunciation anyway.

I also like hyphens between two e's when they are together but are to be pronounced separately as two syllables.


OK rant over. Cinematography, cinematography. So, am I running the risk of ruining all the film I store by not vacuuming air out of plastic baggies?

How can I tell if the air is moist if it's 70°F (21°C) outside? Sorry, I don't own a humidity reader.
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#17 Hal Smith

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 08:08 AM

OK rant over. Cinematography, cinematography. So, am I running the risk of ruining all the film I store by not vacuuming air out of plastic baggies?..............


Yep, it'll transmute into VHS tape within thirty days. Now it's useless because your VCR broke last year and you decided not to bother to fix it.

PS: A "theatre" has live actors, singers, dancers, etc. A "theater" has a movie or video showing.
(Not necessarily Wikipedia's definition but I know stage directors and actors who will bust one of Dominic's Guiness pints over your head if you insist they work in a "theater".
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#18 K Borowski

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 08:23 AM

PS: A "theatre" has live actors, singers, dancers, etc. A "theater" has a movie or video showing.
(Not necessarily Wikipedia's definition but I know stage directors and actors who will bust one of Dominic's Guiness pints over your head if you insist they work in a "theater".


Lol. Who *cares* what Wikipedia's definition of anything is? I ought go over and make your definition it's definition, Hal. You'll contribute to thousands of scholarly delinquent articles citing this as fact.

To avoid getting hit in the head by an Imperial pint glass's worth of glass ( & 34.7 cubic in. / 568cc of empty space!), I will just play it safe and keep calling them both "theatres". Maybe that's why Boothe *really* shot Lincoln!

Actually, quite a few IMAX cinemas agree with me on the spelling. But then again, they think a pair of 2K projectors can somehow replace 15-perf. 70mm in the IMAX experience, so their ability to think rationally certainly shouldn't be taken for granted. ;)
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#19 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:13 PM

rathr than playing cut and paste with quotes...

1) When I was in high school, I bought my first package of developer which was made in the states and contained enough powdered chemicals to make 946ml - I noticed that this was not anywhere near my imperial quart measurer, and resolved to measure photochemicals by the ml from that day forward to prevent tying my brain in a knot. I soon discovered a thick brown film developer made by AGFA that was used 1:50. I had a stainless tank and could just stick 5ml of the stuff in 250 ml of water and I was away. (the extra 5ml of volume was not a problem and saved a lot of math.

1b) We must all remember the famed Gimli glider. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Gimli_Glider as a reminder to avoid mixing measurement units when you don't have to. Air Canada has learned and switched all their documentation to metric.

2) I can recall selling the HP-21 at my first job. the trainer from HP had urged us to do deliberate fumbles with the unit to show that it would not break when dropped. I got into the bad habbit of just striking the unit against the counter to turn it on. The poor calulator had a bunch of nasty dents in the plastic but kept right on going. About 10% of the folks who came in looking where somewhat thrown off when I showed them that the unit did not have an "equals" key. The TI scientifics were far clumsier with their bracket keys but did have a lower learning curve.

What I use a calculator for these days works fine with a calc with an equals key.

3) I often will use a bag sealer to make little packets of 3 to 5 rolls of still film to go in the freezer. These are allowed to warm up before the bag is opened.
The old Kodak manuals say that it is OK to freeze film in the sealed original package, but the late John P was nervoius about freezing film that had been opened..

You might want to seal the roll in the black bag inside the vacuum pack. including silica gell is optional but read the Kodak manuals about differential drying causing distortion or perhaps photographic effects.
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#20 Paul Bruening

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:16 AM

I remember the efforts to change America to the metric system. We had it in class. Some road signs were changed. I recall working on American cars that had half metric and half English fasteners. Frankly, the entire English system is absurd crap. Metric is obviously better. But this is the USA, by God. It's our way or the highway!
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