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70mm Grandeur Camera


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#1 Paul Bruening

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 12:10 PM

There's an old Mitchell 70mm cam on Fleabay. It's been there a while. Could it roll 70mm print stock or has something changed in that stock between the 1920's and now?
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#2 Jay Taylor

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 12:28 PM

Paul,

Didn't the Grandeur use 4 perforations instead of 5? If that's the case, might be difficult to find any labs setup to process it properly.


Jay
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#3 Simon Wyss

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:53 AM

Here's what I've found there:

Specifications
Negative Width: 70 mm
Print Width: 70 mm
Perforation Size: 0.130" x 0.080" (3,302 X 2,032 mm)
Perforation Pitch: 0.234" (5,9436 mm)
Negative Pulldown: 4 perforations or 0.936" (23,7744 mm)
Camera Aperture: 1.890" x 0.9125" (48,006 X 23,1775 mm)
Projector Aperture: 1.768" x 0.885" (44,9072 X 22,479 mm)
Aspect Ratio: 2:1
Soundtrack Width: 0.240" [Movietone variable density] (6,096 mm)
Sound Reproducing Aperture Width: 0.220" (5,588 mm)
Sound and Picture Offset: 11.5 frames or 10.764" (273,4056 mm)
Film speed: 90 ft/min
Frame Rate: 20 frames per second [changed to 24 fps in mid 1930]
Developed by: E. I. Sponable for the Fox Film Corporation
Grandeur Cameras Produced by: Mitchell Camera Corporation, of Glendale, California & Wm. P. Stein & Company of New York
70mm Super-Simplex Projectors by: International Projectors Corporation, New York
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#4 Mark Dunn

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 06:27 AM

The stock wouldn't be compatible. Modern 70mm. stock prints from 65mm., so it has the perfs in the same position as the neg stock. The extra width is outside the perfs.
The Grandeur neg and print stocks were both 70mm. with the perfs on the outer edge, in a different position from modern stock.
No doubt Kodak would perforate you some if you ordered enough.
The 4-perf pulldown wouldn't affect processing, which doesn't use the perfs, but you wouldn't be able to contact print on conventional stock or project.
It's a great piece of kit, though.
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#5 K Borowski

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 06:37 AM

I believe true 70mm film is still made with perforations for both Aerial and C-41 (still negative) applications. Perhaps these perforated stocks would work for this application.

More important question Paul: Sure you can get film for it, but where are you going to get the money with which to buy it if you can't even afford to shoot 16mm?

Stick with a proven format and save your money and all the time wasted on hypothetical problems is your best bet if you ask me, my man. :D
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#6 John Sprung

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 11:32 AM

Perforation Size: 0.130" x 0.080" (3,302 X 2,032 mm)
Perforation Pitch: 0.234" (5,9436 mm)


Yikes -- There's no way to do that on existing perforating equipment. You'd need special punch and die sets, because the holes are bigger and farther apart. Standard negative holes are 0.110" x 0.730", with a pitch of 0.1866".

This camera is strictly a museum piece.




-- J.S.
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#7 Paul Bruening

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 07:30 AM

Thanks fellas,


It was just an idea. At least, now, I know how to use it. John has inspired me. Maybe, Mel Brooks and I could sit around punching the holes to make it work.
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#8 K Borowski

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 07:35 AM

John has inspired me. Maybe, Mel Brooks and I could sit around punching the holes to make it work.


Paul, please don't waste your money, or misinterpret John's apt advice, and buy junk.

Save your money for standard processes, that, in the early 21st Century, are still rendering the best results.
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#9 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 03:30 PM

I believe true 70mm film is still made with perforations for both Aerial and C-41 (still negative) applications. Perhaps these perforated stocks would work for this application.


Yes, you can get 100' rolls of C-41 and E-6 to run through it. maybe some of the Hulchers take larger loads, so there might be larger rolls availiable,

But what about post and prints?

'The Big Trail' was restored and duped to 35mm Scope, so there ought to be AN optical printer head for the format. Try tracking that down. let alone a lab that will print it.

scanning? How about a custom built transport?
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#10 Paul Bruening

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:24 PM

Depending on how much room there is directly behind the gate, you could use the cam for both exposing and scanning the neg. So, are you fellas saying that still film will fit in these works? A 200' roll would last about 2 minutes, 10 seconds or so? That's interesting for sure.
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#11 K Borowski

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 08:50 PM

Depending on how much room there is directly behind the gate, you could use the cam for both exposing and scanning the neg. So, are you fellas saying that still film will fit in these works? A 200' roll would last about 2 minutes, 10 seconds or so? That's interesting for sure.


No, we're not. It's almost exactly the same perforations as 70mm print stock, with B&H instead of Kodak perfs. IIRC.

In any case, how are you going to afford to shoot at over a dollar a foot? Weren't you just saying that you couldn't afford to shoot 16 and 35mm just a few months ago?

Mental masterbation, like other forms, really ought to be a one person activity. There's nothing wrong with musing and thinking about the different processes, but when you never follow through with ANY of them, doesn't that leave you with an empty feeling in your stomach?

It would for me. . .
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#12 John Sprung

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 02:12 AM

.... maybe some of the Hulchers take larger loads, so ...


I took a Hulcher apart once, IIRC, the perfs and pitch were the same as standard 35mm neg, but for film 70 mm wide. The holes were out by the edge, not an extra 2.5 mm inboard like standard 65/70 system print stock.





-- J.S.
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#13 K Borowski

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 06:13 AM

I took a Hulcher apart once, IIRC, the perfs and pitch were the same as standard 35mm neg, but for film 70 mm wide. The holes were out by the edge, not an extra 2.5 mm inboard like standard 65/70 system print stock.





-- J.S.


Well, then, 70mm perforated C-41 or AR-5 (aerial reconaissance film) will work with this camera.

At 100-foot maximum lengths (30.48m), is it really worth it?

Also good luck printing either of these two processes onto ECP-2E (motion picture print stock). Scanning might actually work though. You will have to give a still lab a lot of beer to pin-register footage though. . .
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#14 Paul Bruening

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 03:05 PM

I'm not actually going to buy the thing. I was just curious about it.
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#15 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 03:33 PM

I'm not actually going to buy the thing. I was just curious about it.


This would have been the 70mm camera to get off of eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...N...93:4|294:50

Soviet 70mm camera film was identical to 70mm print film, so this shouldn't be too difficult to convert to 65mm.

One lens, one 250' mag and a possibly broken tach could be a problem...
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