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Unspooling 400' cores down to 100' daylight load spools


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#1 Adam Garner

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 11:27 AM

I am interested in understanding the process of taking 400' cores and spooling 4x100' daylight load spools for my scoopic.

What equipment do I need, and how does one measure in total darkness?

Any help is appreciated!

Adam.
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#2 Tony Ascrizzi

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:14 PM

Unless you REALLY NEED to have 100', just use a film changing bag and an old 100' spool and wind until the spool feels full. If you have several spools, you can wind your different cine films and change them as needed so you can have an assortment of 35mm. There are deals to be had on short ends on ECN and B&W.

The B&W developes nicely in HC110 or D76 and ECN processes BEAUTIFULLY in RA4 chemistry -lower in saturation and contrast than consumer films, or in C-41 for crisp high contrast and somewhat odd but very saturated color.
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#3 Dominic Case

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:51 PM

You need a pair of rewinders - make sure they are well-aligned. They need to have the right flanges to take a daylight spool and a standard core. (Check, they aren't all the same.) You need them set up in a totally dark darkroom.

You should wind the film slowly and steadily, holding the feed side back to ensure reasonable tension as you wind. If the film is too lose, it will slip around as it is pulled off the spool in the camera. Don't forget that you should wind the entire 400' roll onto another core first so that it is foot out. That way, when you rewind onto the 100' daylight spools, the perfs and the edge numbers will be on the correct side.

As for measuring, you could just wind until the daylight spool is nearly full (if you wind right up to the edge of the flange, there is a risk of the outer turns falling off - and also, the daylight will get in the side more easily).

Or you could get 100 ft of junk stock (measure it through a projector, or a footage counter, or, if desparate, measure it as you'd measure a piece of rope. You can, of course, do this in the light.) Wind that measured length from a core onto a daylight spool, counting the number of turns on your rewinder. That's the right number of turns for 100ft. And you don't need to see anything, provided you keep count.

Remember that when you buy 100' daylight loads, they are usually a few feet over 100' to allow for fogging on the first few turns.
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#4 Tom Jensen

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:07 PM

Somebody just asked the question last week but I couldn't find the thread.

Then I went on to to say something Dominic already said so I came back and edited my post. What Dominic said will do. See, wasn't that useful?

Edited by Tom Jensen, 18 May 2009 - 07:10 PM.

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#5 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 08:11 PM

As for measuring, you could just wind until the daylight spool is nearly full (if you wind right up to the edge of the flange, there is a risk of the outer turns falling off - and also, the daylight will get in the side more easily).
Or you could get 100 ft of junk stock (measure it through a projector, or a footage counter, or, if desparate, measure it as you'd measure a piece of rope. You can, of course, do this in the light.) Wind that measured length from a core onto a daylight spool, counting the number of turns on your rewinder. That's the right number of turns for 100ft. And you don't need to see anything, provided you keep count.

David posted in a previous thread that he used about 41 turns of a geared rewind, which is darn close to what I find is needed.
As Dominic said the standard "100" roll is about 112 feet, so you will get 3 3/4 rolls out of a 400 ft roll.
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#6 Adam Garner

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 12:09 PM

Awesome, and thanks. Sounds like I need to build something. No one makes a "spooler" I'm sure?

I'll pay special attention to the side the perfs are on as well. I hadn't considered that.
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#7 Tom Jensen

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:58 PM

Awesome, and thanks. Sounds like I need to build something. No one makes a "spooler" I'm sure?

I'll pay special attention to the side the perfs are on as well. I hadn't considered that.


I'm not sure what you mean by a spooler but you need a pair of rewinds which are made for editors. These are mounted to a board so you have one on the left and one on the right. You need a pair of split reels which are also used by editors and empty 100' daylight spools.
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#8 John Sprung

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 04:32 PM

David posted in a previous thread that he used about 41 turns of a geared rewind, which is darn close to what I find is needed.


Not sure if Moviola and Neumade, etc., have the same gear ratio -- it could be that you and David have the same make, and others could be different. New setups should be tested with a measured load.




-- J.S.
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#9 John Salim

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 04:50 PM

There are deals to be had on short ends on ECN and B&W.

The B&W developes nicely in HC110 or D76 and ECN processes BEAUTIFULLY in RA4 chemistry -lower in saturation and contrast than consumer films, or in C-41 for crisp high contrast and somewhat odd but very saturated color.


...What ? You do realise any B&W film processed through ECN-2, C-41 or RA-4 will have it's emulsion stripped off in the developer ( and cause damage to it and other films ).
Also RA-4 is a colour negative paper process...why would you even want to use those chemicals ?

John S
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#10 John Sprung

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 07:51 PM

...What ? You do realise any B&W film processed through ECN-2, C-41 or RA-4 will have it's emulsion stripped off in the developer ( and cause damage to it and other films ).


As I read his post, he suggests running B&W in HC110 or D76. He suggests running ECN in RA-4 or C-41. I don't see that he recommended putting B&W film in color soup. Of the bunch, only D76 is old enough that I actually ever had my fingers in it. It was pretty much the standard way to go with B&W 40 years ago.




-- J.S.
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#11 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 09:52 PM

As I read his post, he suggests running B&W in HC110 or D76. He suggests running ECN in RA-4 or C-41. I don't see that he recommended putting B&W film in color soup.

Of the bunch, only D76 is old enough that I actually ever had my fingers in it. It was pretty much the standard way to go with B&W 40 years ago.


D-76 is rather old, it is still the standard B&W developer for still film. Ilford makes the essentially similar and generally interchangeable ID11

the trick with running any of the colour processes with ECN film is getting rid of the REMJET.
REversal will likly leave the mask which can probably be worked around if you are using a digital/video finish.
B&W will not work in a colour process. Colour negative will end up with a strong orange cast in B&W process. (Don't forget the REMJET)
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#12 Adam Garner

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 11:52 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by a spooler but you need a pair of rewinds which are made for editors. These are mounted to a board so you have one on the left and one on the right. You need a pair of split reels which are also used by editors and empty 100' daylight spools.


Is there something pre-manufactured that I can buy to do this, or do people just build their own system on a board?
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#13 Tom Jensen

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 03:53 PM

Is there something pre-manufactured that I can buy to do this, or do people just build their own system on a board?


http://losangeles.cr...1177752408.html
Alan Gordon
In Synch Magazine

Just do a search on Film Editing Equipment. The rewinds come separately and you have to make your own board. There is no pre-made board because they usually go on a film editing bench. You probably want the short shafts. You also need two 16mm split reels.
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#14 Dominic Case

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 01:24 AM

you have to make your own board.

If you are close to a lab, and they are kind, you may be allowed to use one of their rewinders in a darkroom.

You can usually find rewinds on Ebay - or go to Hollywood Film Company. If you end up building them onto a baseboard yourself, it is important that you set them exactly parallel to each other, and in alignment. Any deviation from this will result in unwanted friction on the edge of the film as you wind it, which may roughen the edges causing fine dust and sparkle, and may even lead to static fog (especially on b/w negative).
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#15 Jim Carlile

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 03:50 AM

Doesn't he need a SPLIT REEL as well? yikes.

Without one, he'll go insane trying to get the film off of the 400 foot core. So get the rewinds and one 400-foot split reel to hold the core.
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#16 Tom Jensen

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 09:23 AM

Doesn't he need a SPLIT REEL as well? yikes.

Without one, he'll go insane trying to get the film off of the 400 foot core. So get the rewinds and one 400-foot split reel to hold the core.


It was mentioned and yes, he'll need two.
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#17 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 08:16 PM

refering to split reels..

It was mentioned and yes, he'll need two.

or you can cheat. I found a 400 ft daylight spool, which I use for the first wind. I have 5 feet of leader on the spool and use masking tape to attach the new roll of film, which is on a split reel.

The five feet of leader avoid having to find the slot in the daylight spool in the dark.

Since a split reel is a 50 dollar plus item even used..... using a spool or even a regular reel for the intermediate winding reduces the entry cost. One does have to be careful to keep the film from rubbing on the reel, but that would apply to a split reel also. The used 400 ft spools come up on ebay from time to time.
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#18 Jim Carlile

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 09:23 PM

Yeah, why do you need two split reels?

You could even do without the one, if you can figure out how to gird up the feed core so it doesn't unspool all over the place. Maybe use cardboard or something-- it could be done
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#19 Tom Jensen

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 10:57 PM

Yeah, why do you need two split reels?

You could even do without the one, if you can figure out how to gird up the feed core so it doesn't unspool all over the place. Maybe use cardboard or something-- it could be done


What Charles said is the only reasonable alternative I can imagine. Cardboard causes dust. Do you want dust on your film? No. This isn't Gilligan's Island where you can make rewinds and split reels out of coconuts. Just use what's available. If it's a money issue, do what Dominic suggested.
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#20 Paul Bruening

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 08:16 AM

Go by your local cinema and see if the projectionist will throw you an old reel for your temp, tales-in spooler.
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