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Vision 3 500T 7219


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#1 Chris Lange

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 05:52 PM

Hello all,

I will be shooting on 500T 16mm soon. It's a horror movie. I'd like not to have so much shadow detail; i'd like to actually see dark dense blacks. Any recommendations on how to achieve this?

Thanks much,

Chris
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#2 Chris Lange

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 07:24 PM

Would overexposing increase contrast and make blacks denser? How far can I go with this?

And lighting plays a very important role in this look; I have to keep the stock's latitude in mind. Perhaps meter for the key light (while setting f-stop the same), and have shadows drop off completey out of the acceptable range? This will help create dynamic, contrasty frames?

Any help/experience in this sort of look?

Chris
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#3 Andrew J. Whittaker

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 03:23 AM

Are you finishing and printing your film photochemically, transferring your film to video through a telecine, or having the film scanned and colored with a Digital Intermediate?

With any of those options you are dealing with a similar situation which is that your finishing format has less dynamic range than your camera negative.

In the case of a film print, the actual stock used that is projected in theaters reproduces less information than what is shot on the negative. The extra dynamic range on the negative gives the cinematographer extra wiggle room for being able to change printing densities. So automatically when a print is struck from your negative or internegative, you are gaining the contrast that the negative lacks because the outer limits of the under and overexposure are not being reproduced through the print stock.

So when metering for your film you would take into account what is the latitude of your finishing format. In the case of 16mm prints, I have found that I can see detail at 4 below and around 4 above in my tests. So if I were going to print on 16mm, I would keep any detail I wanted in the frame within that 8 stop exposure range.

Now with telecine and DIs, contrast can be dialed in as you like. You can cut more of the shadow and highlight detail out, or keep more of it in as you see fit.

Overexposure will not inherently give you more contrast. It will give you a denser negative because you are exposing more of the silver halide crystals on the film. Overexposure is also used so that when you are printing film the photochemical way, you are pushing more light through the negative on to the positive giving you a less grainy and solid image. This has the effect of some denser, cleaner blacks.

My advice, as I think everyone's advice here, is to do tests with the lab and have those tests finished through to the release format, be it film, video, or a DI onto film.
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#4 Chris Lange

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 09:58 AM

It will be a telecine. Thanks so much for your reply! I think I'll keep to that 8 stop rule, and be in touch with the lab for bumping contrast. Thanks again.

Chris
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#5 Phil Connolly

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 02:14 PM

For Telecine - you can pretty make the stock do what you want - its very flexible.

I directed a project on 7219 last year and had no problems getting a partical Bleach Bypass crushed blacks in the TK suite

see below - compressions not great but you get the idea.


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#6 Chris Lange

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 03:42 PM

Now with telecine and DIs, contrast can be dialed in as you like. You can cut more of the shadow and highlight detail out, or keep more of it in as you see fit.

Overexposure will not inherently give you more contrast. It will give you a denser negative because you are exposing more of the silver halide crystals on the film. Overexposure is also used so that when you are printing film the photochemical way, you are pushing more light through the negative on to the positive giving you a less grainy and solid image. This has the effect of some denser, cleaner blacks.

My advice, as I think everyone's advice here, is to do tests with the lab and have those tests finished through to the release format, be it film, video, or a DI onto film.
[/quote]

Thanks for the information...this is quite helpful. I have no time or money for tests. I'm just going to go for it. We have planned for a crazy lighting settup. I'd like for it to feel psychedelic, but with some dark dense blacks. My idea is to film a gray card and color card at the head of each roll/settup under regular unfiltered tungsten light. Then I will start adding filters to the lamps; some reds, greens, and blues. If the lab grades the stock for the unfiltered light, the crazy filtered light should be able to come alive, right? I hope this is the case. Also, I heard that overexposing the grey card is a viable option in this case as well. Any ideas on this concept? Thanks!
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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:20 PM

Thanks for the information...this is quite helpful. I have no time or money for tests.



Please don't take this as harsh, but in this case, you shouldn't be shooting film then.

How can you afford to shoot on film but not afford a meager 100-foot (30.5m) test roll?

The money you save avoiding costly mistakes/reshoots will make the test roll pay for itself.

How about checking to see if your cameras/mags don't have light leaks?

Are you really going to leave all of this up to chance?

Even with digital finish, scratches, fog, and improper exposure can ruin your work.

And of course, I am assuming you think production insurance is a waste of money too.

Yet it requires that you shoot these tests to qualify for it. Why do you think that is?


So again, not trying to be condescending, maybe your inexperience and budget are better spent on this project by not shooting film. Good luck!

P.S.: Of you are still going to go ahead and shoot on S16, why use a faster, (i.e. more expensive) stock when you're looking for dense blacks? Do you think the "Vision 3" somehow makes it special? '19 is the grainiest, most expensive option to you. Why not shoot slower, cheaper, finer-grained film?

Especially if you want dense blacks, I feel a slower stock would be a better choice for you.

Honestly, if '19 were all I had access to, I probably would shoot digitally instead. I try to stick to 100T 200T and 50D in 16, because, even with overexposure, I feel '19 looks bad in HD due to excessive grain, especially if it is 1080i/p. You can see the grain even at 720p though, even in SD.
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#8 Chris Lange

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 09:44 PM

I have no time to make tests, and this short is an experiment. In a way, it is a test. I am familiar with the camera and the mags; it has worked fine in the past. What you say about the stock is probably true, but we got a deal on the 500T. I appreciate your concern. I am inexperienced, but learning, and enoying the process.

Chris
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#9 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 04:16 AM

7219 has a huge dynamic range, so it's actually very hard to make the shadows go black - it just seems to see far deeper into the shadows than most other stocks except perhaps the low-con 7229. If you were able to use a different stock that had more inherent contrast, you would make your life easier.

That said, if you're getting a deal on the '19, then what you can do to get more contrast out of it is to light to a high f/stop. So instead of lighting to a f/2.8, you would light to an f/8 or so. By lighting to a higher stop and stopping down the lens (or using ND filters), you will be reducing the amount of exposure on the negative from the ambient light bouncing around the set. The result is that there will be less ambient fill light "polluting" your shadows, and your shadows will be blacker.

Also, try overexposing generally (overrating the stock) by about 2/3 stop - this will help expose the smaller, slower grains on the negative between the larger, faster grains and result in a slightly less grainy image. Crush the blacks and clip the whites in the telecine to finish.

Beyond that, you have to light it well! Think about how to create contrast, separation, and depth with lighting and lenses. Don't be afraid to under-light or light from above or from the back. Create silhouettes by lighting backgrounds and leaving the foreground dark. Remember that the shadows in your frame will seem darker by comparison when you have something bright in the same frame.

I would look into renting lots of small fresnels and dedos (if you can afford them) to accent small parts of the frame, rather than soft lights like kinos and chimeras which will create a broad soft illumination. Maybe look into getting polecats and cardellini clamps or some other method of rigging small lights from above.

*Just saw your question about overexposing the grey card - what this does is tell the colorist or film timer to darken the rest of the roll by the amount you overexposed the grey card by. If you overexpose it by 1 stop, they will make the rest of the roll darker by about the same amount. This doesn't get you more contrast, but only a darker overall image.

Edited by Satsuki Murashige, 08 June 2009 - 04:20 AM.

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#10 Chris Lange

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 11:33 AM

Thanks for the advice! A very nice explanation. Much appreciated.

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of overrating (overexposing). How is it that overexposing will help create deeper blacks or finer grain? Say you overexpose 1 stop, what would happen to the highlights with this stock?

And how does this practice relate to overrating the grey card. Can you overrate all seperate shots and the grey card? Or one and not the other?

Thanks,
Chris
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#11 dean s moriff

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 07:32 PM

I would like to know if the 3D Vision and LCD monitor is available in Australia or if there are any companies that ship the glasses and LCD to here.

I have tried everywhere but all that ever pops up are reviews and no info on how to actually get it in Aus. All of the sites that nvidia have only give options for US.

thanks
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#12 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 11:51 AM

Thanks for the advice! A very nice explanation. Much appreciated.

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of overrating (overexposing). How is it that overexposing will help create deeper blacks or finer grain? Say you overexpose 1 stop, what would happen to the highlights with this stock?


If you want areas of the frame to go dark then you can also light up the subjects brighter than normal so the relative light difference between the bright areas and dark areas is more extreme. Use barn doors and stuff so that very little light gets on the dark areas. Meter off of the bright areas. As far as overexposing, I don' t know, people much smarter than me say to do that, but I usually just go with the recommended settings for the film.

As far as messing with the gray card exposure - all you are doing is basically fooling the telecine operator into adjusting your shot incorrectly. As people suggested, without doing tests you are really taking a wild guess at how it's going to look. The operator might see your shot, think you just botched the gray card, and adjust out your colors anyway. Another option is to just give the lab a good camera report and write on there "leave in red colors on shot xyz" or whatever and then the operator will be helping you to get your look.

Here's some extreme light/dark examples. These were metered off of the lights so as you can see the darks are completely black. (These are kodak 400 still film, btw, but same basic concept)

Posted Image

Posted Image

good luck with your shoot!

Edited by Jason Hinkle, 20 June 2009 - 11:55 AM.

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#13 Chris Burke

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 12:27 PM

Thanks for the advice! A very nice explanation. Much appreciated.

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of overrating (overexposing). How is it that overexposing will help create deeper blacks or finer grain? Say you overexpose 1 stop, what would happen to the highlights with this stock?

And how does this practice relate to overrating the grey card. Can you overrate all seperate shots and the grey card? Or one and not the other?

Thanks,
Chris



It was a great explanation wasn't it. Basically overexposing gives you more information on the negative. Remember, it is always easier to "tone it down" rather than create what isn't there. By overexposing you lessen the perception of grain in the image. Since you can not test and, I am assuming, rather new to all this, I would suggest that you rate the film 2/3 over for the entire shoot. 7219 can handle the overexposure quite well. Your jaw will drop when you see your dailies. Almost all negative film likes to be overexposed. In fact, with S16, it is a good idea to go one stop over. When you shoot a grey scale card, expose that normally, then from there on out, overexpose. In the transfer suite, tell them to balance to the grey card. However, if you do a flat 2k scan, which I recommend, it will be just that, but don't worry. You may have already set up a deal with a lab or transfer house, but I recommend that if you can afford to, scan all your material to 2k onto hard drives. If you PM me, I can recommend two local outfits that are give unheard of deals on 2k scanning for indie filmmakers.

Edited by Chris Burke, 20 June 2009 - 12:30 PM.

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