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Which camera should i buy?


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#1 Rodolpho de Barros

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 09:55 PM

Hi,
I have a doubt! I think you can help me.
Should i buy:

Magnon SD-412XL,
Bolex 5122 Zoom Macro
or
Keystone Air K-48a with 3 lenses ?

thanks
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#2 Brian Dzyak

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 10:34 PM

Hi,
I have a doubt! I think you can help me.
Should i buy:

Magnon SD-412XL,
Bolex 5122 Zoom Macro
or
Keystone Air K-48a with 3 lenses ?

thanks



Well, what do you want to accomplish with a camera? Which one of those (or any other equipment) will help you achieve those/that goal best?
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#3 Rodolpho de Barros

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 08:56 AM

Well, what do you want to accomplish with a camera? Which one of those (or any other equipment) will help you achieve those/that goal best?



Brian,
I don't have a specific thing to do. I just want a camera with good lense, good resolution, good options, including different kinds of fps. Probabily i will use the camera to shoot a comercial and a short movie.

I have other options bisedes Bolex 5122 Zoom Macro, Magnon SD-412XL and Keystone Air K-48a:

BRAUN SUPER 8 COMPACT 350
BELL e HOWER SOUND STAR 4
Magnon Super 8 Z-20
Paximate SUPER SOUND SD-817M
CANON 310 XL
BAUER C1
CANON AUTO ZOOM 318 M


i'll wait for an answer!
thanks
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#4 K Borowski

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 09:00 AM

Honestly, I'd stay away from S8, even if you can find one of hte ones that is all manual control.

Otherwise, I'd even recommend R8 over Super just because you are learning all of the things that the pros have to learn.

S8 is too much like video for me, and the cartridge hassles have always outweighed their benefits for me with things like improper speed ratings, jitter, scratching, jamming, etc.

Think you could save up for an H16 or a Bell and Howell? You'll be much better served in the long run.
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#5 Simon Wyss

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 09:14 AM

The two of us in accord: forget Super-8. Supposed they had named it Mustard-8, would you fall on ?
That's what it is, a sausage of a technology with mustard and ketchup over it, ugly and weird, refer to the film's path in a throw-away plastic cartridge, said to have been tested by astronauts with gloves on their hands. Welcome to the land before time and fairy tales sans end.

There have been 30 years of 8 mm before Super-Eight, and in the millions. Double/Regular-Eight is miles better, and cheaper
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#6 K Borowski

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 09:21 AM

Well, maybe the astronauts tested it, the "video" camera on the Apollo program was a gutted S8 body, but I am pretty sure that even in space they opted for 16mm in Mauers.

So they could afford to send 16mm up into space at the cost of hundreds of thousands per pound of mass, but we can't afford to shoot it on the ground today. Incredible.
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#7 Rodolpho de Barros

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 09:54 AM

Honestly, I'd stay away from S8, even if you can find one of hte ones that is all manual control.

Otherwise, I'd even recommend R8 over Super just because you are learning all of the things that the pros have to learn.

S8 is too much like video for me, and the cartridge hassles have always outweighed their benefits for me with things like improper speed ratings, jitter, scratching, jamming, etc.

Think you could save up for an H16 or a Bell and Howell? You'll be much better served in the long run.


Karl,
Thanks for the answer, but i don't wanna stay away from S8! I would like to try more on kind of format. So, i have a doubt of which camera should i buy....anyone who understand of S8, please, answer me!

Thanks for everybody!
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#8 Paul Bruening

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 10:07 AM

Hello Rodolpho,

I'm a 2-perf 35mm advocate. But, I find S8 (8mm) a viable format solely on the artistic qualities of its images. We've had countless tennis matches here over the costs/merits of S8 vs everything else. Bottom line? If you like how S8 looks, shoot in it.

Important to keep in mind is that S8 is really small. Therefore, all of the optics and mechanics are really critical. There are some very informed folks here that can steer you to the best cameras and tweakers in S8. Don't just get any old thing that falls your way. You'll hate watching image jitter from some old POS from ebay and find yourself longing for something like a Leica or Beaulieu.
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#9 K Borowski

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 11:02 AM

Karl,
Thanks for the answer, but i don't wanna stay away from S8! I would like to try more on kind of format. So, i have a doubt of which camera should i buy....anyone who understand of S8, please, answer me!

Thanks for everybody!


I am not dissuading you from 8mm movie film, more S8 in particular, not because of any problems with the size of film, but because of the problems with the cameras being used professionally.

Have you considered DS8, DR8 or R8mm instead?

If those films and cameras are available in your country, I'd recommend any of them over S8.

Steven Spielburg was an avid Double Super 8 shooter.

So again, please don't feel that I am discouraging your use of 8mm film. It is a great way to learn. I think it is a less-painful transition though if you start learning about F/stops, shutter speeds, shutter angles, and manual focus and film loading right from the start.


Or am I misreading you entirely and you have already worked with larger formats?

I just find automatic cameras, in general, that don't have manual overrides to be more effort than they are worth.

I find that I spend more time fighting with a camera that can't be manually overriden than actually shooting.
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#10 Rodolpho de Barros

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:24 PM

Hello Rodolpho,

I'm a 2-perf 35mm advocate. But, I find S8 (8mm) a viable format solely on the artistic qualities of its images. We've had countless tennis matches here over the costs/merits of S8 vs everything else. Bottom line? If you like how S8 looks, shoot in it.

Important to keep in mind is that S8 is really small. Therefore, all of the optics and mechanics are really critical. There are some very informed folks here that can steer you to the best cameras and tweakers in S8. Don't just get any old thing that falls your way. You'll hate watching image jitter from some old POS from ebay and find yourself longing for something like a Leica or Beaulieu.



Paul,
What do you think about this http://super8wiki.co...Sound_Macrozoom ? I'm thinking in buying this.
In matter of fact, i don't know very much about S8, for this reason i'm here.
thanks
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#11 Rodolpho de Barros

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:34 PM

I am not dissuading you from 8mm movie film, more S8 in particular, not because of any problems with the size of film, but because of the problems with the cameras being used professionally.

Have you considered DS8, DR8 or R8mm instead?

If those films and cameras are available in your country, I'd recommend any of them over S8.

Steven Spielburg was an avid Double Super 8 shooter.

So again, please don't feel that I am discouraging your use of 8mm film. It is a great way to learn. I think it is a less-painful transition though if you start learning about F/stops, shutter speeds, shutter angles, and manual focus and film loading right from the start.


Or am I misreading you entirely and you have already worked with larger formats?

I just find automatic cameras, in general, that don't have manual overrides to be more effort than they are worth.

I find that I spend more time fighting with a camera that can't be manually overriden than actually shooting.


Karl,
I didn't think that you was dissuading me from 8mm movie film, sorry for having express me like that.
I don't have experience in 8/16/35mm and i didn't know about DS8, DR8 or R8mm.
I'm searching for one here in Brazil, but i didn't find it and i guess it doesn't exist anymore to sell.

Do you advice me to buy this Bolex or anyone that i put here?
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#12 Freya Black

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:34 PM

I am not dissuading you from 8mm movie film, more S8 in particular, not because of any problems with the size of film, but because of the problems with the cameras being used professionally.

Have you considered DS8, DR8 or R8mm instead?

If those films and cameras are available in your country, I'd recommend any of them over S8.

Steven Spielburg was an avid Double Super 8 shooter.

So again, please don't feel that I am discouraging your use of 8mm film. It is a great way to learn. I think it is a less-painful transition though if you start learning about F/stops, shutter speeds, shutter angles, and manual focus and film loading right from the start.


Or am I misreading you entirely and you have already worked with larger formats?

I just find automatic cameras, in general, that don't have manual overrides to be more effort than they are worth.

I find that I spend more time fighting with a camera that can't be manually overriden than actually shooting.


Double Super 8 film is very hard to come by these days.

The automatic camera thing is a really good point. There are plenty of S8 cameras with manual controls and it s best to try and stick to those because if you get a camera that is all manual and it has a bad light meter (more and more likely as cameras get older) then you have a fairly useless lump of metal/plastic. Also a camera with manual exposure gives you more options when working with films like Vision3 500T.

love

Freya
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#13 Freya Black

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 01:02 PM

Paul,
What do you think about this http://super8wiki.co...Sound_Macrozoom ? I'm thinking in buying this.
In matter of fact, i don't know very much about S8, for this reason i'm here.
thanks


At least this one claims to have manual exposure.

It actually looks like quite a nice camera if the price is right as it has an intervalometer and other fun features.
The Bolex S8 cameras are generally not the best but this one does look quite nice. It will probably be very heavy as it is a sound camera and bolex were quite bad in that regard for their sound cameras and obviously none of the sound features will work as you havn't been able to buy sound film in S8 for some considerable years.

Keep an eye out for cameras made by Bauer, Canon, Minolta, Beaulieu is my recommendation and make sure the one you get has manual exposure.

However the 5122 might be a good option if the price s low enough as it has a very high featureset and manual exposure.

love

Freya
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#14 Rodolpho de Barros

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:50 PM

Does someone know anything about the Keystone BEL AIR K-48A, it has 3 lenses: 13mm; 9mm and 38mm, can shoot in 12,14, 24 e 48fps. Is it better than Bolex 5122 Zoom Macro?


Above are the references to cameras:

Keystone Air -> K-48a http://www.mercadoli...amp;id=93905913
CANON AUTO ZOOM 318 M -> http://super8wiki.co.../Canon_Zoom_318
BRAUN SUPER 8 COMPACT 350-> http://super8wiki.co...tor-Zoom-Reflex
CANON 310 XL -> http://super8wiki.co...hp/Canon_310_XL
BAUER C1 -> http://super8wiki.co...Bauer_C_1_Super
Magnon SD-412XL -> http://produto.merca...LB-97425976-_JM
Magnon Super 8 Z-20 -> http://www.mercadoli...amp;id=90521712
Paximate SUPER SOUND SD-817M -> http://produto.merca...em-original-_JM

Magnon Ton - 800 Super Eight Reflex Hi - Sound -> http://produto.merca...ex-hi-sound-_JM
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#15 Freya Black

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 03:28 PM

Does someone know anything about the Keystone BEL AIR K-48A, it has 3 lenses: 13mm; 9mm and 38mm, can shoot in 12,14, 24 e 48fps. Is it better than Bolex 5122 Zoom Macro?


I'm guessing this is standard8 and not s8.
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#16 Rodolpho de Barros

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 03:33 PM

I'm guessing this is standard8 and not s8.


Can you tell me the difference?
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#17 Rodolpho de Barros

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 04:47 PM

i found this..

http://super8wiki.co...n_Auto_Zoom_814

what you guys think about? I read a lot of good things of this Canon!
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#18 K Borowski

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:59 PM

Can you tell me the difference?


That's what I was recommending.

Unless he is talking about Single 8mm, which, I think is the same as S8 but only works in proprietary Japanese cameras, regular 8 uses 16mm-sized sprocket holes spaced twice as frequently as standard 16mm (I think every 3.75mm (~148mils) as opposed to every 7.5mm (295mils) with 16mm film), on both sides of the film.

They usually come in 25-foot (7.62m) ( (formerly 50-foot (15.24m) models were available as well) and 100-foot (30.48m) lengths.

You film 25-feet at a time, flip the film over and film again. So you film only half the width of the 16mm film at a time, then slit to 8mm width afterwards.

That "cool" effect of red fog at the end of a clip that all the vidiots love to emulate is a very real problem with shooting with this format unless you use changing bags to flip rolls.

I'd recommend a changing bag too.

One BIG advanatage of DR8 (standard 8) and DS8 is that they look like standard 16mm films, and can be processed at the same professional rates.

Theoretically, they could be one-light printed too before slittling on 16mm continuous exposure printers too.

One disadvantage is that the standard 16mm perf eats up a lot of space, especially with twice the frequency per unit length and being on both sides of the film.

S8 perfs were smaller, nearer the edge of the film, and allowed for bigger image area.

If DS8 cameras weren't commanding a premium, I'd say it is hands-down the best format. Due to its cost though, R8 is a better option for those on a tight budget.

In general, DR8 and DS8 cameras are from the '50s or before, and are often designed to be operated by winding up clock-work motors.

S8 cameras tend to be flimsier and electronic, which also, forty + years later, makes them far more finicky and repair-prone.

Keep in mind that, in the '60s, the concept of truly disposable cameras was introduced, so a lot of these S8 cameras were only designed to run maybe 20 cartridges before they died.
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#19 Brian Dzyak

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 08:26 AM

I used this: http://www.nacamera....eaulieu_lg.gif to shoot a feature years ago while in college. I was able to use 200 foot mags of Kodachrome 40 which comes in handy.

Beaulieu 7008 Pro

The Beaulieu 7008 Pro is a quiet running Super 8mm camera with many features including: built-in crystal speed control (4-80 fps), intervalometer, reflex viewfinder, variable shutter, in-viewfinder light meter. Camera runs standard Super 8mm stocks, or Super 8mm color negative stocks.

[url="http://"%20<a%20href="http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nacamera.com/nacamera/themes/nacamera/images/beaulieu_lg.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.nacamera.com/nacamera/%3Fq%3Dcameras&usg=__7KpOtE7omzUv96GABFIP1FZ4mCo=&h=150&w=194&sz=19&hl=en&start=14&sig2=1X7GVZ0pW9WJjylsCocb_w&um=1&tbnid=SVRJfu_MkI9-aM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbeaulieu%2Bsuper%2B8mm%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1%26newwindow%3D1&ei=plYySp_pOZzWlQfG--WsCQ""%20target="_blank">http://images.google...htt...QfG--WsCQ"</a>"]http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...pOZzWlQfG--WsCQ[/url]
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#20 K Borowski

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 12:48 PM

From the horse's mouth (Martin Baumgarten):

Super8mm (13:21:36): The Keystone is useless.....it's a magazine camera and would be a pain and costly to use...since there is ONLY one place in the world that loads those mags.....me.
Super8mm (13:21:56): More film choices in Super 8mm....and nice low light ability as well.
Super8mm (13:23:09): I can't post anything, so I can't help him out. There are 3 cameras he mentioned that would be useful to him....but the others are of less use and the Keystone useless.
Super8mm (13:23:35): Cartridges are rarely troublesome..... [CRUDE SEXUAL JOKE]


Lol. That's all I could gleam from Martin before he logged out. He tried to join the site, but says he never got a confirmation e-mail.
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