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Super-16 Projector?


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#1 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 12:17 PM

I recently got my camera converted to Super-16 which is fantastic. Before the conversion I used to shoot my tests and just project a work print instead of paying for costly telecine.

Now I can't do that anymore on my R16 projector which is a bummer! Are there any projectors or viewers that work with Super-16? Of course I don't really want to spend a fortune.

Thanks for any suggestions.
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 12:22 PM

I recently got my camera converted to Super-16 which is fantastic. Before the conversion I used to shoot my tests and just project a work print instead of paying for costly telecine.

Now I can't do that anymore on my R16 projector which is a bummer! Are there any projectors or viewers that work with Super-16? Of course I don't really want to spend a fortune.

Thanks for any suggestions.



Hi,

For tests I don't really see an issue. I am sure you could modify a projector if you really needed to.

Stephen
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#3 Freya Black

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 12:44 PM

Hi,

For tests I don't really see an issue. I am sure you could modify a projector if you really needed to.

Stephen


I think what stephen means is that you could still project the S16 footage but it would just be a bit cropped and only show the 4:3 part of the image but should be okay for a lot of tests. :)

love

Freya
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#4 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 02:22 PM

What Stephen means is that one could physically modify a 16 mm projector (by widening the gate and re-centering the lens _very much like a camera) to project S16 footage.

This has been done before, but it is done on a case by case as the extra image area on the S16 format would traditionally be occupied by the soundtrack on a 16mm film print, which is why S16 is not a distribution format. I suppose with the advent of digital soundtrack on 35 mm film prints (between and around the sprocket holes for example), S16 could potentially be turned into a distribution format _however unlikely, as digital (non-mechanical projecting) seems to be the preferred distribution way of the future

I have seen one or two Eiki S16-mod projectors. A Kodak Motion Analyzer would be my first choice, although I don't know if it easily accepts the S16 mod. Perhaps Bernie O'Doherty would know / and can modify one for you. . .
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#5 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 03:04 PM

Thanks everybody for the response, well knowing what a camera conversion cost, it seems unlikely the projector would be very affordable. i suppose i can just watch with the edge of my footage cut off or maybe try to widen the gate and see what happens. at least projector are cheap so it wouldn't be a great financial loss if i ruined one.
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#6 John Adolfi

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 03:13 PM

But wait, aren't the S-16 perforations not the same size or space as the regular 16mm? Sort of like the difference between 8mm and super 8mm?
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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 04:06 PM

But wait, aren't the S-16 perforations not the same size or space as the regular 16mm? Sort of like the difference between 8mm and super 8mm?


No. That's why S16 was a terrible name and S8 was a terrible name. They invite confusion.

Maybe they should have called it Stretch 16 or Extra 16.


Anyway, no, the perf's are the same except that, obviously, you can only use single-perf (one-sided) 16mm film with S16, as the frame extends into what was either the 2nd row of sprockets or the soundtrack on the other side of the film.

THe only film size difference is that non-sound regular 16mm film *can* have a second row of perf's running down the soundtrack side of the film.
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#8 John Adolfi

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 08:44 PM

so some projectors can accommodate S16 film Are the one sided sprockets on some of the projectors on the correct side to play S16? My confusion on this topic is two fold.

1.) No one ever talks about projecting S-16, for any reason and I though the reason was because...

2.) the film does not configure with standard 16mm projectors.

Anyone know where you can find a dedicated or modified S16 projector. I'm thinking of shooting some awesome home movies.
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#9 K Borowski

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 01:20 AM

The perfs are on the same side. The reason why no one talks about projecting S16 is because it hard-crops off the edge of a frame and S16 was primarily a blow-up format, and is now a primarily DI/telecine format. No one is contact printing it. . .

For tests though barring some scratching out-of-gate, yeah you should be fine.
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#10 John Adolfi

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 07:14 AM

I assume there are no S16 reversal films currently being manufactured to shoot and project with? All negative?
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#11 Freya Black

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 07:22 AM

I assume there are no S16 reversal films currently being manufactured to shoot and project with? All negative?


There is ektachrome 100D but it is quite expensive.

There is also Tri-X reversal and PlusX-reversal, the latter also being available as neg.
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#12 Freya Black

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 07:25 AM

What Stephen means is that one could physically modify a 16 mm projector (by widening the gate and re-centering the lens _very much like a camera) to project S16 footage.


You could well be right!

Not sure how easy it would be to remove the gate on most 16mm projectors but you could always have a go at widening the gate yourself with needle files? You would need to be careful and take your time over it and you would need some S16 film for referance.

You might get away without recentering the lens. That would be a big job.

Edited by Freya Black, 21 June 2009 - 07:26 AM.

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#13 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 07:29 AM

so some projectors can accommodate S16 film Are the one sided sprockets on some of the projectors on the correct side to play S16? My confusion on this topic is two fold.

1.) No one ever talks about projecting S-16, for any reason and I though the reason was because...

2.) the film does not configure with standard 16mm projectors.

Anyone know where you can find a dedicated or modified S16 projector. I'm thinking of shooting some awesome home movies.


The only place I've seen S16 projected is in the lab. I expect you can buy a S16 projector, but they wouldn't be that common because their only use would be at the lab or for viewing rushes. The problem being a S16 projector is silent because there's no area on the film to put the soundtrack.

S16 is intended to be blown up to 35mm rather than being projected as a format in it's own right. It has also been taken up by TV because of the need for a 16 x 9 format.

You could project S16 using a standard 16mm projector, but one side of your image would be missing
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#14 Bernie O'Doherty

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 09:12 AM

Jason, I've converted maybe a hundred of the bloody things to S16. Most times there's coverage, even though the lens is off-axis. Seems the lens rear exit pupil covers the extra one millimeter. My customers want to either project S16 for small groups, or transfer the film themselves. Haven't had any complaints so far. Depending on the projector model, prices range from $275 to $375 for the conversion. No scratches....Promise !
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#15 Hal Smith

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 10:55 AM

Of course if one REALLY wanted a Super-16 sound projector one could record a DTS time code track on the outside of the sprocket holes. If anyone's brave enough to try, I've got a brand new 35mm DTS TC reader I'll donate to the project.

Bernie?
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#16 K Borowski

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 04:28 PM

Jason, I've converted maybe a hundred of the bloody things to S16. Most times there's coverage, even though the lens is off-axis. Seems the lens rear exit pupil covers the extra one millimeter. My customers want to either project S16 for small groups, or transfer the film themselves. Haven't had any complaints so far. Depending on the projector model, prices range from $275 to $375 for the conversion. No scratches....Promise !


Bernie, you may just be my new best friend.

I'm sorry, I don't see a model listed in the prior posts. Can you recommend one to me?


Also, can labs contact print S16 negative to S16 print stock? I thought the few contact printers still in use were exclusively for old-school R16 production, with a hard matte to protect the possibility for an optical sound track.
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