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Low end green screen HVX vs EX1


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#1 Freya Black

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 02:42 PM

I'm looking at keying a lot of video and was wondering if I would be better with the 4:2:2 of the HVX or whether the added resolution of the EX1 would offset that advantage?

Also whether I wouldn't just be better connecting my HV20 to a laptop and recording the feed (not keen on the HV20 look tho even if it is high res).

I've heard it said that digibeta would probably be better than either!

Any other suggestions for low end keying setups? I'd be interested in hearing them.

love

Freya

Edited by Freya Black, 23 July 2009 - 02:47 PM.

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#2 monday sunnlinn

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 09:47 AM

I'm looking at keying a lot of video and was wondering if I would be better with the 4:2:2 of the HVX or whether the added resolution of the EX1 would offset that advantage?

Also whether I wouldn't just be better connecting my HV20 to a laptop and recording the feed (not keen on the HV20 look tho even if it is high res).

I've heard it said that digibeta would probably be better than either!

Any other suggestions for low end keying setups? I'd be interested in hearing them.

love

Freya


I've owned both the EX-1 and the HPX-170. The HPX-170 wins hands down. The EX-1 works okay for hard edged objects, but that's about it.
Other tips would be:
- use the fastest shutter speed you can stand.
- check out Conduit for keying...it's nodal based, cheap, has a plenty of tutorials and works wonders for keying, even on my frizzed out dreadlocks...

Also if you are going for the panasonic route, HVX or HPX, try the neatvideo noise removal plug-in before you key it. It is the closest thing I've seen to magic in this world. If you don't want to use that plug-in try turning down the detail a little on the camera and turning up the coring some, this will reduce noise, but with a minimal amount of detail going away also. (That's why I prefer the neatvideo plug in...)

:-)


www.neatvideo.com
http://www.dvgarage....p?prod=conduit2
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 12:15 PM

Hi,

Recording an EX1 via the HD-SDI output to either a raid or HDCAM SR (more expensive) would produce very very good results. Remember to turn the detail OFF!

Stephen
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#4 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 12:53 PM

You're going to have some difficulty with either of them due to the compression and subsampling. I haven't used the EX1, but I have done some keying of HVX footage, and it was unpleasant though manageable. Definitely turn off Detail like Stephen said, no matter which camera you use- it will damage your edges beyond repair. I guess my vote would be for the EX1 overall, just because it's got higher image quality, but I'm saying that without having taken a really close look at it, so I don't know how useful my advice would be.
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#5 Freya Black

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 03:38 PM

You're going to have some difficulty with either of them due to the compression and subsampling. I haven't used the EX1, but I have done some keying of HVX footage, and it was unpleasant though manageable. Definitely turn off Detail like Stephen said, no matter which camera you use- it will damage your edges beyond repair. I guess my vote would be for the EX1 overall, just because it's got higher image quality, but I'm saying that without having taken a really close look at it, so I don't know how useful my advice would be.


Thanks for your reply!

The EX1 has higher resolution but the HPX/HVX sample colour at 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 on the EX1, so I guess it depends what you call higher image quality. The enhanced colour space on the HPX could really help in the context of keying but then increased resolution means better colour too, so it depends on the tradeoff. The EX1 is also more heavily compressed I seem to remember but then there is more to compress in a smaller space.

I appreciate your advice! I would like to know what you mean by unpleasant. Do you mean unpleasant compared to footage shot on proper high end equipment?

Keying seems to be one of those kind of, how long is a piece of string type questions.

love

Freya
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#6 Freya Black

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 03:53 PM

Hi,

Recording an EX1 via the HD-SDI output to either a raid or HDCAM SR (more expensive) would produce very very good results. Remember to turn the detail OFF!

Stephen


Thanks Stephen! Started to look into this kind of thing in terms of maybe recording my hv20 to a laptop, turned out to not be so possible to do this till this little thing which has just arrived: matrox mx02.

It's a little box that runs off 12v power and connects via a laptops card slot. It captures HDMI.
So that is interesting although maybe a little bleeding edge! It only just came out.

I assume if I had a set up like this I could capture whatever cameras video AND sound?
Wouldn't want to loose my sound! I think HDMI does sound too tho?

This would give me the full res of the CMOS with 4:2:2 and whatever codec the computer was capable of handling.
I'd still have that HV20 look tho presumably, unless there is a way to turn that off. I noticed at broadcast live that none of the other canons had that nasty look. I suspect canon may have done it deliberately. :(

Wish there was a nice easy answer. Kind of wish there was no P2. Everything would be easier now. Oh well.

love

Freya
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#7 Freya Black

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 03:58 PM

I've owned both the EX-1 and the HPX-170. The HPX-170 wins hands down. The EX-1 works okay for hard edged objects, but that's about it.
Other tips would be:
- use the fastest shutter speed you can stand.
- check out Conduit for keying...it's nodal based, cheap, has a plenty of tutorials and works wonders for keying, even on my frizzed out dreadlocks...

Also if you are going for the panasonic route, HVX or HPX, try the neatvideo noise removal plug-in before you key it. It is the closest thing I've seen to magic in this world. If you don't want to use that plug-in try turning down the detail a little on the camera and turning up the coring some, this will reduce noise, but with a minimal amount of detail going away also. (That's why I prefer the neatvideo plug in...)

:-)


www.neatvideo.com
http://www.dvgarage....p?prod=conduit2


Thanks Monday! That's actually REALLY helpful. May end up going panasonic somehow. Guess it depends how my options turn out. Conduit looks nice although I'm not mac based at present.

love

Freya

Edited by Freya Black, 24 July 2009 - 04:01 PM.

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#8 monday sunnlinn

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 10:58 PM

Thanks Monday! That's actually REALLY helpful. May end up going panasonic somehow. Guess it depends how my options turn out. Conduit looks nice although I'm not mac based at present.

love

Freya



Again, I've tried both and the panasonic wins. The EX-1 has bad jaggies on soft edged things... it's strictly due to the color. If you can record out of the HD-SDI from the EX-1, go for it...but if you could afford that set-up, you could just get a better camera than either probably...
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#9 Stephen Williams

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:25 AM

HD-SDI from the EX-1, go for it...but if you could afford that set-up, you could just get a better camera than either probably...


Hi,

A better camera wont help unless you are recording to HDCAM SR or better. I saw a test EX1 v F900R greenscreen both recorded HDCAM SR, the production went with the EX1.
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#10 Freya Black

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 02:01 AM

Hi,

A better camera wont help unless you are recording to HDCAM SR or better. I saw a test EX1 v F900R greenscreen both recorded HDCAM SR, the production went with the EX1.


YES!

I know what Monday means and you would think by the time I've laid out a load of cash to do direct recording that I could buy a better camera but having looked into it, the options for this are actually really thin on the ground. Monday might be right that I might be able to get like a second hand digibeta camera or maybe an older varicam or something if I really scored a special deal but in the newer market theres not much out there.

The next cheapest option would be the panasonic HPX 300/301 I think, which is a CMOS based P2 camera with fancier new codecs. The AVC-intra 100 codec looks nice and has 4:2:2 The CMOS should finally give a big resolution jump from the ccd cameras like HVX etc. People say the cmos can do the wobble but in a green screen situation I suspect this would never be an issue. Seems like almost the ideal green screen camera but P2 is sooo expensive and even the camera alone is out of my price range.

Strangely getting a very cheap camera such as hmc150 or even something cheaper like HMC40 or JVC HM100 and feeding to one of the new direct recording technologies might work out more straightforward. There is a new device that takes compact flash cards and can record from the hdmi coming out for about $3000. Looks interesting.

However I suspect I will end up using an old HVX and a firestore. It seems the cheapest option just now.

Strange how few choices are out there but at least there are some! :)

Thanks so much everyone. I feel much clearer on this whole issue now with your help!
Seems the consensus is definitely more colourspace. :)

love

Freya
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Aerial Filmworks

The Slider

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Metropolis Post

Ritter Battery

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