Jump to content


Photo

tonal range of b&w stocks: reversal vs neg.


  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 chris hoag

chris hoag
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts
  • Student
  • Chricago

Posted 02 August 2009 - 08:22 PM

Hi, in general which (if either) has a greater tonal range as in blacker blacks (d max?) and whiter whites (d min?) between reversal stocks of negative stocks? Thanks!
  • 0

#2 chris hoag

chris hoag
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts
  • Student
  • Chricago

Posted 03 August 2009 - 12:34 AM

oops, that should say "reversal stocks OR negative stocks"
  • 0

#3 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 03 August 2009 - 03:11 AM

I'm not really sure exactly what you are asking. Both stocks/processes are capable (when one knows what he is doing) of producing almost infinite gradations in between D-max and D-min. Both, when projected, can potentially have very inky blacks and the brightness of white is only limited by the base.

Are you asking about the contrast range of a scene as it would translate to each stock?
  • 0

#4 Brian Pritchard

Brian Pritchard
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 328 posts
  • Other
  • Stoke-on-Trent, UK

Posted 03 August 2009 - 04:12 AM

In general negatives have a greater ability to record tonal range than reversal stocks; this is because reversal stocks are processed to a higher contrast than negatives. Reversal stocks are processed to a projection contrast. Having said that higher contrast stocks will give a denser black and usually a cleaner white.

Particularly in the case of black and white you have the ability to adjust the contrast of both the negative and the print whereas the final contrast of a reversal stock is determined by the first development contrast.
Brian
  • 0

#5 Dirk DeJonghe

Dirk DeJonghe
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 605 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Kortrijk,Belgium

Posted 03 August 2009 - 05:41 AM

This discussion is a bit pointless. What will be the final output of the film? A telecine cannot recover the deepest blacks you can get on high contrast reversal film. Even a scanner will be problematic. A low contrast negative can be printed on various positive stocks and the positive stocks can be processed to different gammas.

There are lots of decisions to be made here and it would be wise to consult both lab and postproduction people with experience in B&W.
  • 0

#6 Dominic Case

Dominic Case
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1357 posts
  • Other
  • Sydney Australia

Posted 03 August 2009 - 05:12 PM

If you are asking which type of stock is capable of recording a wider range of scene brightnesses, then the anwwer is simple: negative does better. Printing or telecine transfer can then be used to select the range of tones required, but in general, the final screened result can't show everythinig that is on the negative. (That is the luxury - you get to choose in the grading/timing/colour correction session rather than on set.)

But if you are asking which type of stock has intrinsically whiter whites and blacker blacks, then the answer is reversal. Negative has a letter range of densities, starting from the grey base through to a modest maximum density. But you don't need more: it cptures the full range of tones in that scale, and it's not designed to be looked at. (In any case, its a negative!)

Finally, a print made from a negative can usually have a blacker d-max than a reversal original - but that depends at least partly on the processing, as print stock can be processed to a range of gammas.
  • 0

#7 chris hoag

chris hoag
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts
  • Student
  • Chricago

Posted 04 August 2009 - 10:23 PM

Yeah I guess I was asking if the d-min and d-max were equal between the two types of stocks for example if you projected a totally black image (d-max) in both types of stocks side by side which would be darker? but this was helpful.
  • 0

#8 Dominic Case

Dominic Case
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1357 posts
  • Other
  • Sydney Australia

Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:03 AM

Normally you wouldn't be projecting negative of course. But it sounds as though you are asking the question for some other reason - for example which is the best stock to run through a projector if you don't want light on the screen ????
  • 0


Rig Wheels Passport

CineTape

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Abel Cine

Aerial Filmworks

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Opal

CineLab

FJS International, LLC

Glidecam

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Wooden Camera

The Slider

Willys Widgets

Metropolis Post

Ritter Battery

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Metropolis Post

The Slider

Opal

Wooden Camera

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Visual Products

Tai Audio

Rig Wheels Passport

Technodolly

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Glidecam

Abel Cine

Paralinx LLC

Willys Widgets

CineTape

Aerial Filmworks

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

FJS International, LLC

CineLab

rebotnix Technologies

Ritter Battery