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#1 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:24 AM

Ok, here's the situation:

Been offered a Music Video shoot with people whom I don't know and here's my worries:

Want to shoot Times Square w/o permits and a lot of equipment (some of it mine)
Can't Afford/ Don't want to afford production insurance......
And, above all else, don't seem to have the time-management skills to realize the shoot.
Now, I don't mind the rate I'm getting, but I am unsure if I should/could/would deal with the hassle.
We're 2 weeks away from shooting.. what do you all think I should do? Respectfully state that without production insurance/permits that I won't in good conscience do the shoot?
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#2 David Auner aac

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:34 AM

We're 2 weeks away from shooting.. what do you all think I should do? Respectfully state that without production insurance/permits that I won't in good conscience do the shoot?


Yep, that's what I would do. Or they change the circumstances of the shoot. Better than to have legal trouble and damaged or lost personal gear. Saying NO is what saves your rear end at times!

Cheers, Dave
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#3 David Rakoczy

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:59 AM

Of course.. what will you do if your Camera becomes damaged? I would not worry about the permits as long as you are paid in advance as you will probably get a second day out of them... that is on them for not getting their paperwork in order... but Insuring your Equipment?... ABSOLUTELY!
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#4 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:03 AM

Thank you David and David.
Dave R, Normally I don't worry about permits either, but NYC and Time Square with a dolly/jib..... not a good idea w/o proper paperwork.
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#5 Frank Barrera

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:19 AM

Thank you David and David.
Dave R, Normally I don't worry about permits either, but NYC and Time Square with a dolly/jib..... not a good idea w/o proper paperwork.

No way. I would highly recommend walking away from this. If they are so scattered brained that they think shooting in TS w/o permit is "ok" they are either woefully inexperienced or magnificently incompetent. Its mind boggling actually...
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#6 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:22 AM

Ok, here's the situation:

Been offered a Music Video shoot with people whom I don't know and here's my worries:

Want to shoot Times Square w/o permits and a lot of equipment (some of it mine)
Can't Afford/ Don't want to afford production insurance......
And, above all else, don't seem to have the time-management skills to realize the shoot.
Now, I don't mind the rate I'm getting, but I am unsure if I should/could/would deal with the hassle.
We're 2 weeks away from shooting.. what do you all think I should do? Respectfully state that without production insurance/permits that I won't in good conscience do the shoot?


Here in the UK as soon as you crack out a tripod of any level in center London you will have an army of police, community support officers and private security guards ready to cart you away if you haven't got a permit. So on the assumption New York is similar if you are planning to use a tripod of some kind and carrying more equipment that it can't be carried in two or three rucksacks say no.

Insurance wise, a busy place is not a great place for uninsured kit. A field in the country is hardly going to be a problem, but a place populated by 1000's of people, some oportunitic criminals is not good - so its totally fair to say no on this issue alone.

Also how does your public liability insurance work, will they have that at least - you don't want to find your self in court if some tourist trips on one of your flight cases?

This just feels like a typical music promo thing of trying to cut corners, even if there is a potentially unfortunate risk for you self.



On a side note, it turns out the police were totally correct to be wary of amateur and indie photographers and filmmakers trying to catch a cheeky shot without a permit, the CIA have found evidence that terrorists are now employing Super 16 and in some cases 3-per 35mm for their recce's of mass distruction, appreciating films excellent colour saturation and dynamic range, over the previously used Sony Hi-8 camcorders previously employed. Al-Quaeda terroists are apparent big fans of Fuji's Vivid 160T....
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#7 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:39 AM

Well,
I went with my gut, and turned down the shoot.. and I'm sure tarnished myself a bit :/ But here's hoping I pull through.
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#8 Freya Black

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:44 AM

Thank you David and David.
Dave R, Normally I don't worry about permits either, but NYC and Time Square with a dolly/jib..... not a good idea w/o proper paperwork.


I know that in the past you didn't need to have permits to shoot on NY streets but more recently they tried to change that situation and there was a massive outcry. I can't remember what the outcome was exactly, I know at one point there was some talk of a compromise. Having said that even if you didn't need permits, a dolly/jib could be taking the piss a bit. They might be able to charge you with obstruction or something. In addition I'm not sure what the legal status of times square would be. It might well be considered kind of city owned private property. Where I live you can probably shoot where you like mostly without any permit, however the main city squares would be very dodgy. I know people have just done art stuff in these squares and it's been treated like a major security thing. Not sure if time square is like that, in fact I'm not sure what times square is exactly, but it seems dodgy.

Insurance is even more of an issue. It seems like shooting on the street like that you would be preety exposed. It's not like that shoot in the house you just did, and they were actually insured!

I know I'm normally encouraging of tiny projects shot for 10p with a couple of chinese lanterns over a few days. These things can be an adventuure aand a challenge, and you know, if you told me you were going to try and shoot this with a hv20 and a maybe cheap tripod or monopod I'd still be like yeah go for it perhaps, but this just seems taking the sillyness a bit too far, jib, dolly, ex1. It just seems like going out there and shouting ha ha we are completely taking the piss.

I'm inclined to say no too, sorry.
Maybe discuss with them if they can change their plans maybe they just got a bit carried away in their excitement. :)

love

Freya
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#9 Freya Black

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:53 AM

Well,
I went with my gut, and turned down the shoot.. and I'm sure tarnished myself a bit :/ But here's hoping I pull through.


Think you did the right thing.
I note that what they proposed would have requied permits and stuff even before the more recent crackdown.
Check out the link below:

http://www.nppa.org/...0/nyc_film.html

Notice how they specifically refer to not causing an obstruction.

The fact even I'm saying no, should re-assure you I hope!
Thats a job for 2 people and a HV20, not a full crew and a camera crane.

love

Freya
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#10 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 11:01 AM

Thanks Freya. It's nice to know I'm at least partially in the right; though the fear of screwing up what little career I have now certainly frightens me. In the end, I went with a stern "no," and "i'm sorry." and I really am (as my facebook status states!). I just don't think it's going to be worth the pay-check or the insane hassle I'll have to go through.
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#11 Freya Black

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 11:08 AM

Well,
I went with my gut, and turned down the shoot.. and I'm sure tarnished myself a bit :/ But here's hoping I pull through.


Also they probably respect you for it, you are just too good for their cheap ass production! ;)
Theres a time to know when to be nice and a time to know when you are being exploited and to stand up for yourself.

Stay positive I'm sure you will pull through! Something loads better will come your way.

love

Freya
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#12 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 11:10 AM

Ironically I just got a call from the Philadelphia Free Library to film another one of their events, very nice, simple, and pretty well paid for a 1/2 day!
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#13 David Rakoczy

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 12:31 PM

I wouldn't care if they brought in a Titan Crane... get your $ upfront and as long as your equipment is insured you are good to go.. sounds like a three ring circus... take a helmet of some sort :lol: .... obviously if it is something dangerous reconsider.. but to me it sounds like #1 you get paid upfront. #2 you unload your camera and begin to build it and before you are done the show is shut down because a cop saw them building a jib. #3 You go home early... PAID.... and wait for a call scheduling the next (Pre-PAID) day where you might actually shoot something :lol:

Provided you have nothing else going... it makes perfect 'business' sense to me!
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#14 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 12:38 PM

Ironically they offered a deposit.. but I'm the type who'd''ve given it back if we had gotten busted up. Alas, I am no major businessman!
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#15 David Rakoczy

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 12:39 PM

Provided you gave them several warnings as what to expect.. you would have no reason to return funds or feel guilty. ;)
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#16 Freya Black

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 02:01 PM

Ironically they offered a deposit.. but I'm the type who'd''ve given it back if we had gotten busted up. Alas, I am no major businessman!


You maybe need to stop being that type.

You would actually be doing the right thing by keeping the deposit in that situation. Firstly you need to look after yourself because if you don't then you won't be in a situation to help other people and you want to help other people right? Secondly it is important that the people involved would have a penalty for their stupidity and abusive behaviour. Why? because it is good for them. This way they learn...hmmmm that wasn't a good idea and they do things a better way next time. Lastly while it's good to help people and be nice, you must consider the risk/reward. Remember the story of the scorpion and the fox. It ends up not being good for EITHER of them.

However at this stage you need to be making friends and not alienating people, so it's best you avoided the situation.
These people may well learn from their experiences and maybe will call you for a more sensible shoot one day.

For the time being I think you did the right thing. ALWAYS listen to that little voice at the back of your head, even if you decide to go against what it says, always listen and consider VERY carefully what it has to say. It's usually right.

I think you made the right decision.

love

Freya

Edited by Freya Black, 03 August 2009 - 02:03 PM.

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#17 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 03:04 PM

Thank you all. And yes, I know I need to stop being that "type," but alas I think it's in my nature. You're of course right, Freya, but on the plus side, I just got another confirmed date from the Phila Free Library which might turn into a routine thing. And that, a routine client, would be nice(er) than a few days in NY.
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#18 Freya Black

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 03:28 PM

Thank you all. And yes, I know I need to stop being that "type," but alas I think it's in my nature.


*giggle* Yes there is the story of the 2 monks and the scorpian too but keep in mind that if they were deadly killer scorpians like the ones you always see in movies, then he wouldn't be able to rescue the scorpian the second time, and no doubt the meaner monk would have squished the scorpian with his monk boots in the absence of nice monk. :)

You're of course right, Freya, but on the plus side, I just got another confirmed date from the Phila Free Library which might turn into a routine thing. And that, a routine client, would be nice(er) than a few days in NY.


I don't see a minus side, is all plus side, you made the right decision and a regular client that pays, is no hastle, and seems to like the work you are doing is excellent news indeed! :)

love

Freya
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#19 Fran Kuhn

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 04:57 PM

Adrian,

Why did this production not want to get a permit? Just wondering. I mean, the list of problems that could arise without it is staggering.

-Fran
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#20 Chris Hackett

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 10:38 AM

Ive seen shoots like this happen quite frequently from reputable people. Its filler stuff mostly and they just tried to take you in for the ride. I once saw a prod. lose himself pretty bad when he transitioned from a location with a location agreement to just outside the gates of the facility where he though he was in safe territory and got stopped from filming.

Oh and hey Adrian...... I can see why you like this forum.....
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