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super 16 NPR for 1000?


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#1 Evan Ferrario

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 02:52 PM

i just got won an eclair NPR super 16mm on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/...T#ht_500wt_1182

It was $981 for a super 16 NPR, motor, 400 foot magazine and Angenieux 12-120 lens

I had no intention of buying an NPR, I've been trying to get my acl package all together however for the price, super 16mm, I couldn't resist. I've also been in need of a 400 foot capable magazine.

I've asked the seller to confirm that it is super 16mm before I send the payment. I was wondering if anyone could tell me more from the pictures as the seller didn't seem to know too much about cameras. I don't think it is a scam as I have contacted the seller and I am protected by paypal. This just seemed like too good of a deal to pass up.
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#2 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 07:09 PM

I don't know the NPR well enough, but I don't think you'd be able to tell 16 from Super-16 without seeing either a picture of the gate or some footage. Have the seller measure the gate width/height in millimeters then you can calculate if it's a 4x3 or a 16x9 ratio.

If you absolutely forced me to guess, I would suspect it is regular 16 due to the fact that the included Angenieux 12-120 does not fully cover the Super-16 frame and you stated that the seller doesn't know much about film cameras. But, that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
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#3 Evan Ferrario

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 07:32 PM

i verified with the seller that it is infact super16mm and the lens doesn't cover the film at the wide end of the lens.
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#4 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 10:28 PM

i verified with the seller that it is infact super16mm and the lens doesn't cover the film at the wide end of the lens.


nice - congrats on a sweet deal!
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#5 Stephen Smith

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 07:58 AM

very good price, Shame it isn't one with a C mount as well, i'm not sure how many lenses there are in Ca mount that cover s16?

thsi must be quite an early S16 conversion to have to CA mounts???? anyone have any idea?
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#6 David Auner aac

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 08:33 AM

very good price, Shame it isn't one with a C mount as well, i'm not sure how many lenses there are in Ca mount that cover s16?

thsi must be quite an early S16 conversion to have to CA mounts???? anyone have any idea?


IIRC all NPRs are C mount. Even the CA mount (or int he case of mine, Arri Bayo) were attached on top of that. So if you strip the Ca mount you should have one with two C mounts, unless it was modified before...

Cheers, Dave
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#7 John Sprung

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 01:10 PM

In the late 1960's - early '70's, NPR's were delivered from the factory with one C mount and one CA-1 mount. CA-1 was kinda loose, lenses would fall out at times. Far more lenses were available in Arri mount, so a lot of them were swapped from CA-1 to Arri.




-- J.S.
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#8 David Auner aac

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 02:09 PM

In the late 1960's - early '70's, NPR's were delivered from the factory with one C mount and one CA-1 mount. CA-1 was kinda loose, lenses would fall out at times. Far more lenses were available in Arri mount, so a lot of them were swapped from CA-1 to Arri.


Hm, according to what my tech told me beneath that CA mount there is a C mount as well. But maybe that wasn't true for all NPRs....

Cheers, Dave
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#9 John Sprung

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 01:41 AM

Hm, according to what my tech told me beneath that CA mount there is a C mount as well. But maybe that wasn't true for all NPRs....


I seem to remember the opening being too big for that, but it's been almost 40 years. Perhaps I'm remembering what they looked like after the Arri mount conversion. That definitely didn't have room for a C mount under it.



-- J.S.
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#10 Evan Ferrario

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 06:28 PM

So I just got the NPR I need some help deciding if I should keep the damn thing. My biggest problem with the camera was the seller did a horrible job packaging the camera, there was a round knob that appears to have broken off from the motor, I have included a picture of it. I'm sure I can repair it but it doesn't leave me very confident that this fragile tool was bouncing around in a poorly packed box.

From the looks of it, this is not a professional super 16 conversion. I have included pictures of the gate which appears to of been filed. What I am suspecting is that the lens wasn't re-centered, just the gate was filed. Is there any way I can check if the lens has been properly re-centered? Also, did the shutter need modification as well? I am assuming I need to shoot some film to find out and I can do that quickly if that's the case.

I am leaning towards returning the camera just because I bought it on the super 16 selling point. I don't have too long to decide one way or another so any input is appreciated. I knew it wouldn't be perfect based on the price I got it for but my question is, can I shoot super 16 with this camera or is it just a regular 16mm with a widened gate.

I am new to the NPR so I am reading the manual tonight before I attempt to run the camera with a dummy roll.

Also what is the lens mount I have pictured, it is different than the one on my ACL.

I can provide any more pictures/tests once I know what to look for

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#11 John Sprung

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 07:14 PM

I have included pictures of the gate which appears to of been filed. What I am suspecting is that the lens wasn't re-centered, just the gate was filed. Is there any way I can check if the lens has been properly re-centered? Also, did the shutter need modification as well?


Yup, that aperture looks hand filed. It might not be wide enough, and it sure looks like they went too far down on the lower left. That would result in some image overlap in that area -- upper right on screen. If you can borrow a vernier caliper, you can check it. The width should be 0.493", and the original height should have been 0.295". If that corner is over 0.2994" high, you'll have overlap.

I'd guess that you're right about it not being re-centered. You can pretty much tell by eye just looking very straight and square on into an empty lens port with the shutter open. The aperture is wider by 0.089", all on one side. No shutter modification is required.




-- J.S.
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#12 Evan Ferrario

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:22 PM

Thanks for the help, the filing does go below the original "bottom" of the 16mm gate. I have taken a few pictures as straight on as I could but I might have to eyeball it myself. The thing is, the lens mount doesn't look like it was ever modified. Are there any signs I could look for to see if the mount was moved?
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#13 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 04:11 AM

Thanks for the help, the filing does go below the original "bottom" of the 16mm gate. I have taken a few pictures as straight on as I could but I might have to eyeball it myself. The thing is, the lens mount doesn't look like it was ever modified. Are there any signs I could look for to see if the mount was moved?
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I am not a camera technician, but surely, if the lens was re-centered the aperture opening should line up exactly with the centre of the lens mount. Your pictures seem to show a differential amount of space between the left and the right sides of the aperture. Judging by the crude filing job, I think you can be thankful the lens wasn't re-centred by whoever did that!
richard
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#14 Stephen Smith

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 06:25 AM

I'd send it back personally. It's quite dishonest of the seller to not show the poor conversion job in his auction photos.
It doesn't look like the lens mounts have been modified, it is normally quite obvious that they are out of alignment.
Have you ran some unexposed film through the camera to see if the gate scratches???
It's a shame people can't leave these things alone if they're going to do such a bad job and aren't experienced with hand tools.
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#15 Evan Ferrario

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 09:53 AM

I ran some dummy film through and it appears not to scratch. I believe the seller was more of an ebay seller than a cine expert. I knew it was a gamble going into it. After talking with the seller, rather than return it, he has offered to give it to me at a reasonable price (less than 500). I am shooting a test roll today to check everything out. Although it is not super 16, it seems like I got a nice working regular 16 NPR for a reasonable price.

I am considering converting this camera to ultra16 to match my ACL.
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#16 David Auner aac

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 10:38 AM

I ran some dummy film through and it appears not to scratch. I believe the seller was more of an ebay seller than a cine expert. I knew it was a gamble going into it. After talking with the seller, rather than return it, he has offered to give it to me at a reasonable price (less than 500). I am shooting a test roll today to check everything out. Although it is not super 16, it seems like I got a nice working regular 16 NPR for a reasonable price.


Have it converted to Super yourself. Shouldn't cost that much at a reasonable shop (e.g. Les Bosher's or Bernie O'Doherty's). I bet they could easily replace that gate...

Cheers, Dave
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#17 John Sprung

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 05:05 PM

..., rather than return it, he has offered to give it to me at a reasonable price (less than 500).


For that money, it's worth keeping and having a competent shop fix the aperture and give it an overhaul. From the pictures, they didn't mess with trying to re-center. You could have that old CA-1 mount changed to Arri S/B, with the new centering. Converting to Ultra, you might not have to worry about the overlap issue. Bottom line, you got a good deal on a major fixer upper.





-- J.S.
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#18 Boris Belay

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 05:57 PM

Also what is the lens mount I have pictured, it is different than the one on my ACL.


Hi Evan, So it does look like a decent deal in the end. I found that this kind of nice gesture is not rare on eBay from people who don't really know what they are selling, so it's worth a try ! Basically, they don't want to go through the hassle of the return, re-list, and poor sale (given the fault you find with the gear), so they are often willing to find an arrangement that works for both. Not too bad, if not the great deal you expected in the first place...

Regarding the mount : it looks like you got one of the special order NPR's with two C-mounts (regular was CA and C, a factory option for Arri and C was also offered). Then you have a rare Eclair-built C to CA adapter screwed onto one of the mounts.

It is a CA mount like the one you probably got with your ACL (typically provided with any ACL), but it differs in two points : it has a tab that prevents the lens being mounted upside down (not very useful, since Angé lenses, for instance, have the T-stop scale underneath the usual mounting position, and you may want to mount the lens upside down to see it), and more importantly, the mounting depth of the C to CA adapter is deeper than the CA adapter for the ACL.

This is a little-known but important fact about the ACL : the standard CA adapter does not accept some CA lenses : they jut out too far back to fit, or if they fit, to focus to infinity. So far, I have encountered this problem with only a few lenses : the Cooke Kinetal 25mm, the Cooke Speed Panchro 18mm Series II (35 mm. lens), and some exotic remounting of Angénieux primes by a French company called SERIP (doing high precision mounts for the France broadcasting corporation in the 60's/70's).

This is a bit of a problem, even though you can still mount these lenses on an ACL with a C to CA adpater like yours. If anybody else has encountered that problem with other lenses, perhaps we can make a list of those lenses in a new thread.
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#19 Guy Bodart

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 09:35 PM

Have it converted to Super yourself. Shouldn't cost that much at a reasonable shop (e.g. Les Bosher's or Bernie O'Doherty's). I bet they could easily replace that gate...

Cheers, Dave


You just got a nice press paper!
It's not a conversion, it's a destruction!
You need a new turret with an original Ca-1 mount and recenter it to Super 16mmm format. You also need a new film gate. There is no question about that. The best in the US to convert Bolex, Eclair NPR and ACL i Cameraspro.com . When Bernie has problems with Eclair , he send the customers to Cameraspro.
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