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constructing a shift/tilt lens for eclair


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#1 Lee Young

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 08:37 PM

I am making a shift/tilt lens for an eclair. I am making it based on this article(http://www.creativep...ra-lens-peanuts), but I am doing it in a different way. These are the materials I'm using:
1. M42 bellows macro set (http://cgi.ebay.com/...e=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
2. c-mount adapter for M42 lenses (http://www.bhphotovi...itialSearch=yes)
3. M42 Rikenon 50mm f1.7

I am basically going to derail the bellows system in order to move the lens freely and then secure it with a c-stand and gator clamp once I have found the position I want. Any reason this shouldn't work? Also, I know there are two different types of c-mounts. I am assuming the one I purchased was not the Leica type. Can anyone tell from the picture? To me it looks to be the c-mount used on 16mm cameras.
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#2 Lee Young

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 02:21 PM

Is the c-mount used for surveillance video the same as the c-mount used for 16mm cameras? I remember some c-mount video lenses working on a bolex. I just want to make sure.
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#3 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:11 PM

Is the c-mount used for surveillance video the same as the c-mount used for 16mm cameras? I remember some c-mount video lenses working on a bolex. I just want to make sure.

yes and no. There is a so-called "short" c-mount with the image sensor closer to the lens than in a film camera. Also some TV lenses omit the aperture control as you can fake that out on a tv camera. Finally, some TV cameras have a focus control that moves the tube/sensor back and forth, so the lens intended for those does not have a focusing mount.
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#4 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 12:03 AM

I am making a shift/tilt lens for an eclair. I am making it based on this article


You can use finished devices- Hartblei shift/tilt lenses.

http://www.luminous-...artblei45.shtml

http://www.luminous-...php/t13228.html

http://www.hartblei.eu/index.htm

Hartblei lenses can have versions for Canon, Nikon and other 35 mm SLR photo cameras.
You will need attach of lens mount adapter only.
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#5 Lee Young

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:00 AM

Hey Olex. That is a very good article. That looks like a great lens. Unfortunately it is still out of the price range of our production. We were originally going to buy the Arri shift/tilt lens system, but we realized the adapter necessary to fit it on our cameras was around the same price as the system. I am working on getting a wide angle M42 lens for this. We will probably buy either a Takumar or Rikenon. Thank you for this info. I might have to get one of these for my medium format camera.
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#6 Patrick Neary

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:54 AM

You might have better luck doing the same thing but with all Nikon mount, you'll have an easier time finding wider lenses, 20mm, 15mm, etc.
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#7 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 07:13 PM

I am making a shift/tilt lens for an eclair. I am making it based on this article(http://www.creativep...ra-lens-peanuts), but I am doing it in a different way. These are the materials I'm using:
1. M42 bellows macro set (http://cgi.ebay.com/...e=STRK:MEWNX:IT)
2. c-mount adapter for M42 lenses (http://www.bhphotovi...itialSearch=yes)
3. M42 Rikenon 50mm f1.7

I am basically going to derail the bellows system in order to move the lens freely and then secure it with a c-stand and gator clamp once I have found the position I want. Any reason this shouldn't work? Also, I know there are two different types of c-mounts. I am assuming the one I purchased was not the Leica type. Can anyone tell from the picture? To me it looks to be the c-mount used on 16mm cameras.




I have this exact same set up with a 50 mm Super Takumar 1.3 lens that I use with my ACL. It works great but only work for macro work, ie. not as a TS set up. The bellows extender plus the c-mount to M42 adapter puts the lens at least 4 inches away from the film plane, so macro is all you get. Derailing it is kinda moot at that point because the DOF is so shallow at apertures greater than f8 (in addition to a pretty narrow FOV in macro mode) you cannot tell the lens is tilted at all. Sorry to poop on your parade.

I assume you are using this for 16 mm work. I don't think there is a real TS solution for 16 mm. You will very likely have to use wider angle TS 35mm lenses with an adapter. Canon has some older TS lenses that you can use on 16mm if you can afford the FOV change (the infamous and much maligned "crop factor" everyone here so much hates and misunderstands) that you get when using 35 mm still lenses with 16 mm, etc.

But I would say forget about the bellows. They were designed for slide replication (ie macro work) in 35mm not for tilt and shift 16mm cinematography.
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#8 Lee Young

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:26 PM

I have this exact same set up with a 50 mm Super Takumar 1.3 lens that I use with my ACL. It works great but only work for macro work, ie. not as a TS set up. The bellows extender plus the c-mount to M42 adapter puts the lens at least 4 inches away from the film plane, so macro is all you get. Derailing it is kinda moot at that point because the DOF is so shallow at apertures greater than f8 (in addition to a pretty narrow FOV in macro mode) you cannot tell the lens is tilted at all. Sorry to poop on your parade.

I assume you are using this for 16 mm work. I don't think there is a real TS solution for 16 mm. You will very likely have to use wider angle TS 35mm lenses with an adapter. Canon has some older TS lenses that you can use on 16mm if you can afford the FOV change (the infamous and much maligned "crop factor" everyone here so much hates and misunderstands) that you get when using 35 mm still lenses with 16 mm, etc.

But I would say forget about the bellows. They were designed for slide replication (ie macro work) in 35mm not for tilt and shift 16mm cinematography.


Thank you for the info Saul. I am about to obtain a Super Takumar 20mm f4.5 lens. Do you think it could possibly work with this lens? Have you ever tried derailing with a wide angle lens? I know that the FOV change change will likely be a problem, but don't you have to use a lens that is a format up in order to be able to tilt and shift? If i move the bellows as close to the gate as possible, would it be a possibility? Sorry, I have to ask. Even if it doesn't work, I need to do some macro photography on the picture I'm trying to make it for anyways.
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#9 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 01:55 AM

Thank you for the info Saul. I am about to obtain a Super Takumar 20mm f4.5 lens. Do you think it could possibly work with this lens? Have you ever tried derailing with a wide angle lens? I know that the FOV change change will likely be a problem, but don't you have to use a lens that is a format up in order to be able to tilt and shift? If i move the bellows as close to the gate as possible, would it be a possibility? Sorry, I have to ask. Even if it doesn't work, I need to do some macro photography on the picture I'm trying to make it for anyways.


Yes, I have tried it derailing it, in fact I did so right after I read your post earlier today. The real problem is that the bellows is designed for macro work, so that is what you get, regardless of whether you have a wide lens on it or not. The FOV change is secondary, you will get that anytime you use a lens designed for a larger format on a smaller one.

The 20 mm lens would work only if you could bypass the bellows. See, a tilt and shift lens has that mechanism generally built within the lens itself, not between the lens and the film plane -which is what you get with a macro bellows:

Posted Image

I would look into one of the Lensbaby lenses or a real tilt and shift lens ( both with an adapter) instead of the bellows.

http://www.lensbaby.com/

Good luck.
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#10 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 02:23 AM

Hey Olex. That is a very good article. That looks like a great lens. Unfortunately it is still out of the price range of our production. We were originally going to buy the Arri shift/tilt lens system, but we realized the adapter necessary to fit it on our cameras was around the same price as the system. I am working on getting a wide angle M42 lens for this. We will probably buy either a Takumar or Rikenon. Thank you for this info. I might have to get one of these for my medium format camera.


As for me, the mechanism of shift/tilt for any lens - high precision mechanism and will ask of many precision turning/milling procedures.

I discuss with guys from Hartblei about product of special edition of shift/Tilt lenses with Arri Pl lens mount and Zeiss glass, and this project will finish at future.

If we will told about finished devices, you can have versions :

1. to use Hartblei shift/tilt lens, like Super- Rotator + Nikon C-mount adapter.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...id=p3286.c0.m14

2. to use of Tilt adapter "Pentacon Six lens" to Nikon mount + Nikon-C-mount adapter.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...id=p3286.c0.m14

You can attach of Pentacon Six 30 mm, 45 mm, 65 mm, 80 mm, 120 mm, 150 mm lenses.
This can be Russian Kiev-60 lenses or Carl Zeiss Pentacon Six lenses.

Yes, the final price can be a some high.
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