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Zooming out in Telecine, What is possible?


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#1 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 07:36 AM

Hi there, I'm researching into a project where we are looking into the idea of zooming out from the neg during the telecine process to show it as rolling film.

Its not uncommon to see Super 16 un-matted on a SD transfer so you see the top and bottom of the surrounding frames but what if you wanted to go further, zoom out to see the edge of the perfs, edge code etc...

I'm curious to see how much of this is possible?

We are talking about doing this in the realm of Super 16 or even Standard 16mm in the London area, where most facilities are using the Spirit.

I'm sensing that a Spirit isn't the most capable machine to do this on?

Any suggestions or advice is greatly appreciated,
Cheers,
Andy
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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 08:56 AM

I wonder, and this is just me wondering outloud, if you could do it on the Spirit by replacing the 16mm gate with the 35mm gate?
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#3 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 10:25 AM

I wonder, and this is just me wondering outloud, if you could do it on the Spirit by replacing the 16mm gate with the 35mm gate?



The Spirit is really not a good machine to do zooms on, the line arrays are fixed and most zooms on this machine are electronic not optical.

A Millennium Machine by Cintel is what you want as the CRT system will be able to give you a true optical zoom out that will show about three frames at any one time. I don't think you will have much luck seeing the edge code and full perf on any telecine as the skid plate on the gate will cover this portion of the film.

There are scanners which can show the entire film from from edge to edge including perfs and edge code, you could get DPX scans and assemble in post....

-Rob-
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#4 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 10:47 AM

Nice to know Rob; I'll certainly store that in mind. I haven't done much reframing in post, but I might have to in the future.
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#5 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 11:25 AM

Nice to know Rob; I'll certainly store that in mind. I haven't done much reframing in post, but I might have to in the future.



If you really want multiple frames in one with edge code and all then a 2K scan on a full frame scanner is really the only way to go. Of course then you have to assemble all the frames in a editor and sync them to run concurrently et all... allot of work.

If you are just looking for a multi frame effect and you want to do some quick high quality zooms then a CRT telecine like a millenium or Nova is the way to go I think these machines make a better pic than a Spirit-1 anyway and you get real time zoom FX.

-Rob-
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#6 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 02:36 PM

Thanks Robert, just getting the edges of a perf and bit above and below is sort of what we're thinking, plus that red burning, we're thinking of using daylight spools too.

If we're forced to shoot standard 16mm what would happen if you run that through the super 16 gate? Presumably you would just get an extra black slither down one side.
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#7 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 02:49 PM

Thanks Robert, just getting the edges of a perf and bit above and below is sort of what we're thinking, plus that red burning, we're thinking of using daylight spools too.

If we're forced to shoot standard 16mm what would happen if you run that through the super 16 gate? Presumably you would just get an extra black slither down one side.



You would get a frame edge on that side but if you hold the daylight spool up to the sun for a second and shake it :lol: you will get a nice burn down both edges which can look really cool. I shot a fashion thing recently with my Filmo and I took the door off the side and stood a little in front of a light to get some cool flare through some of the shots. I shot 7219 with a 25mm 1.9 schneider came out cool...

-Rob-
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#8 Paul Korver

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:31 PM

Hi Andy,
Coming in a bit late to this post. Typically 16mm/S16mm gates are constructed to block out any potential light coming in from the perfs. For our Ultra 16mm modified gate the opposite is true... we had it machined so that we could see as much as possible... and as a side benefit it makes a perfect "effects pass" gate for any 16mm where you want to pull out and see perfs. We did this a few months ago on a Keane music video that's on our site. It's a mix of HVX200 P2 footage and Bolex 100' daylight loads that we transfered direct-to-drive at 720p DVCPro HD (to match the P2 footage exactly).

For an example of what's possible go to the "gallery" section of our site ( http://www.cinelicious.tv/?page_id=5 ) and scroll down to the Keane "you don't see me" video. The best examples are at :45 seconds in then another great one at 2:10.

Good luck!

-Paul
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#9 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 06:58 AM

Thanks again Rob and Paul, this is an interesting topic, obviously it can be done but its a matter of finding who can do it.

This obviously brings up the question for me, who in the UK uses a Cintel Millenium machine and if they do are they willing to allow an effects pass like this rather than just a strict rushes service?

Maybe this is worth another thread, Telecine services in the UK!?!
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#10 Paul Korver

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 09:35 AM

This obviously brings up the question for me, who in the UK uses a Cintel Millenium machine and if they do are they willing to allow an effects pass like this rather than just a strict rushes service?


Keep in mind the Cintel machine also has to be outfitted with a modified gate to be able see the perfs. Standard 16mm and Super 16mm gates wouldn't be able to do that.
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