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#1 WaiHoong

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 05:27 AM

A lot of reviews about RED cam say that it records in RAW files?

And yes, on the LCD.. it does show the information about technical adjustments during shooting

But how bout the output of the visual after transferring into the computer? Is RAW means we can only see the adjusted visual on the LCD during production ? but the recorded visual are plain not according to those adjustments like gain, aperture, shutter, brightness etc...

Thanks...
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#2 Ben Brahem Ziryab

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 05:52 AM

Yes, the RED ONE camera are able to shot in RAW.

I am not sure exactly about what you'r asking...but I assume RAW on the RED ONE camera means the same as on still photography. RAW and JPG compression are very similar. The advantage you will get shooting RAW, is the better control over the Brightness, Gamma, Contrast, Colors etc. in Post.

The Image Quality you will receive after transferring the footage to the computer will be the same you saw on your LCD Monitor while shooting. And of course, considered you shot in 4K and the monitor only displays up to 1080p, there will be a difference in resolution which can affect the level of detail, but all-in-all the image on the monitor and the transfered footage will look the same.
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#3 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 06:54 AM

On set, the RED will display a quick and dirty "view" of the image on it's LCD display in whatever color space you choose to monitor in. As it's recording it's creating a .r3d file, which is it's raw data, and unless disabled by the user a quicktime movie proxie. These proxies are edited on the computer of your choosing, though they do not represent exactly what was captured. Later on, after the edit, one can go back and conform to the 4K material and give it a color correction before exporting it. Once exported it is no longer RAW. Or, one youl export all the footage with rough corrections and edit that.
The benefit of RAW is that there is no [or better put less] compression done in camera and as it's just sensor data, nothing is fully baked into the image giving you more control of color and brightness/contrast in post as mentioned.
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#4 WaiHoong

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 07:44 AM

Thanks Ziryab! you totally have answered my questions...
and
Thanks Adrian for additional info.
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#5 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 08:03 AM

Point of order:

The benefit of RAW is that there is no [or better put less] compression done in camera and as it's just sensor data, nothing is fully baked into the image giving you more control of color and brightness/contrast in post as mentioned.


Red uses an absolutely massive amount of compression - beyond 12:1 by even the most generous calculations. The reason it stores things as a compressed version of the bayer matrix is that they then don't have to bother putting debayering hardware in the camera.

The fact that you then get to defer all your colour decisions is, I suspect, entirely coincidental.

P
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#6 Richard Boddington

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 12:00 PM

Point of order:



Red uses an absolutely massive amount of compression - beyond 12:1 by even the most generous calculations. The reason it stores things as a compressed version of the bayer matrix is that they then don't have to bother putting debayering hardware in the camera.

The fact that you then get to defer all your colour decisions is, I suspect, entirely coincidental.

P



Phil,

How much compression is there on 35mm?

R,
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#7 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 02:02 PM

How much compression is there on 35mm?


None, there's just a gigantic amount of noise.

Sorry, grain. Which isn't noise at all because, er, er, um...
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 02:32 PM

Point of order:



Red uses an absolutely massive amount of compression - beyond 12:1 by even the most generous calculations. The reason it stores things as a compressed version of the bayer matrix is that they then don't have to bother putting debayering hardware in the camera.

The fact that you then get to defer all your colour decisions is, I suspect, entirely coincidental.

P


Hi Phil,

If Red recorded truly raw data from the sensor, the cameras performance would not be improved with the new firmware updates on a regular basis.
It's therefore my understanding that the data is processed before the compression.

Stephen
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#9 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 02:52 PM

Yes, although at that point you may be in the grey area between what's image processing, and what's just the technical requirements of driving the sensor.
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#10 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 03:16 PM

None, there's just a gigantic amount of noise.

Sorry, grain. Which isn't noise at all because, er, er, um...

...it's "signal"?
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#11 Mei Lewis

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 03:40 PM

None, there's just a gigantic amount of noise.

Sorry, grain. Which isn't noise at all because, er, er, um...



Hahahaha! Love it!
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#12 Graeme Nattress

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 03:48 PM

Point of order:

Red uses an absolutely massive amount of compression - beyond 12:1 by even the most generous calculations. The reason it stores things as a compressed version of the bayer matrix is that they then don't have to bother putting debayering hardware in the camera.

The fact that you then get to defer all your colour decisions is, I suspect, entirely coincidental.

P


Point of math: 4096x2304x12bit*24fps = 324MB/s. RC28 ~28MB/s, which is 11.57:1, which is less than 12:1. RC36, about 36MB/s leads to 9:1, and RC42 leads to 7.7:1, approximately.

There is full demosaicing in hardware, which you can tell by pressing the 1:1 LCD view switch, which passes through a crop of the full demosaiced image to the outputs.

Graeme
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#13 John Sprung

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 04:10 PM

There is full demosaicing in hardware, which you can tell by pressing the 1:1 LCD view switch, which passes through a crop of the full demosaiced image to the outputs.


But that's intended mainly as a video tap substitute, right? Isn't the game plan still to do much better de-Bayering in post?




-- J.S.
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#14 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 04:55 PM

Point of math: 4096x2304x12bit*24fps = 324MB/s.


The claim of the sensor being 4500 sites wide has been fundamental to your claim of 4K resolution. Or at least I rather hope it has...

What's even more amusing is the hyperbole I had to suffer to look that number up. Call me a hater and mail me to Murmansk, but I do find it hard to relate on a technical level to someone who regards himself as part of a "highly elite group of visionaries", but who's willing to hide behind shiners like "red does not record video, which is defined as an RGB signal". As opposed to, ah, well, more or less every camcorder ever made, which record a YUV signal. I knew there was a reason I never read the red site, but good grief...

You must accept that it is very difficult to reconcile a "highly elite group of visionaries" who clearly can't count and lack a solid grasp of the very basics of their field.

P
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#15 Graeme Nattress

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 05:04 PM

The claim of the sensor being 4500 sites wide has been fundamental to your claim of 4K resolution. Or at least I rather hope it has...

What's even more amusing is the hyperbole I had to suffer to look that number up. Call me a hater and mail me to Murmansk, but I do find it hard to relate on a technical level to someone who regards himself as part of a "highly elite group of visionaries", but who's willing to hide behind shiners like "red does not record video, which is defined as an RGB signal". As opposed to, ah, well, more or less every camcorder ever made, which record a YUV signal. I knew there was a reason I never read the red site, but good grief...

You must accept that it is very difficult to reconcile a "highly elite group of visionaries" who clearly can't count and lack a solid grasp of the very basics of their field.

P


4.5k wide mode is 4480x1920*12bits*24fps is approx 295MB, giving slightly lower compression ratios than the 4k 16:9 mode I used earlier.

Phil - I see that people are posting here asking questions to help them understand things. Surely that's what this forum is about, not picking fights whenever anyone asks a question about RED, and then giving them wrong information.

Graeme
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#16 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 05:37 PM

So what d'you get out of that, an image with a usable resolution of what, 2k by 1k? What's that for?

Oh, no, wait, I get it: that's for establishing your claim on a 4K RGB image, isn't it! Silly me.

P
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#17 Mathew Rudenberg

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:38 PM

So what d'you get out of that, an image with a usable resolution of what, 2k by 1k? What's that for?

Oh, no, wait, I get it: that's for establishing your claim on a 4K RGB image, isn't it! Silly me.

P


It may not be true 4k, whatever that is, but I know my colorist tells me that the 1080 out of quad HD he's timing on my show is perceptibly sharper than the F35 footage he's getting from some rather big shows - and he's not one to be affected by hype.

For a fraction of the cost that's pretty impressive to me...
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#18 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 10:55 PM

Yes, I'm sure it's a very good 2K compressed camera, if you're lucky enough to get one that has all the latest updates and doesn't overheat. What it is not is a 4K raw camera.

P
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#19 Oliver Christoph Kochs

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 05:30 AM

Phil, i will for sure apply for an internship as you seem to be completely resistant to any marketing hype in digital cinematography.
Kudos, Oliver
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#20 Marcus Joseph

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 07:40 AM

Phil, i will for sure apply for an internship as you seem to be completely resistant to any marketing hype in digital cinematography.
Kudos, Oliver

Phil sure makes a compelling argument about the proposed marketing facts of Red.
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