Jump to content


Photo

Chop points


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 15 October 2009 - 09:47 AM

Anyone have some handy and current rules of thumb on what highs and lows should be chopped off for various outputs?

Stereo optical film print?

DTS?

Audio through commercial, digital projection systems?

Onboard, TV speakers.

Average home theater?

Premium, 5.1 or 7.1 home theater?

What might be a compromise, one-size-fits-all set of levels? If not, could I mix a set of broad levels for better systems and a narrow set for TV and internet?
  • 0

#2 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 17 October 2009 - 12:00 PM

I'm doing the audio part of my feature (no cost part). I've set up a looping station with sound panels. The room is null-quiet. The Audio Technica shotgun sounds stunning. I've got a small table with two monitors, keyboard, mixer and room for ashtray and coffee cup. Everything is rolling just fine. It's a true, one-man operation.

What I don't know is a good strategy for the high and low frequencies of the signal. Should I roll the entire range top to bottom and shave out the ends for TV and internet? Or, should I go ahead and knock some off the top and bottom between the mic and computer?

I'm sampling at 96,000 and saving PCM 24 bit. Goldwave is my recording and polishing software.
  • 0

#3 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 18 October 2009 - 01:10 PM

This is really an incredible challenge. Every other project I've done sound on was location sound with only fixing loops woven in. There was always this enormous pile of noises that had to be turd polished into a unified scene. This movie is entirely a guy talking to himself. Internal dialog. That means every single filter I run on it makes a pronounced change in the room noise. Normally, I would weave some standard room ambiance on top and hide it. Not now. The base sound changes stand out like a sore thumb.

What I've had to do is live-EQ the two character's to separate their performances (me, in both cases) and then leave it alone. The only fixes that don't stand out are some room tone to bridge the signal gaps between dialog. That's it. I've never been faced with such pure dialog sound that I absolutely couldn't massage it. This is when racks of expensive premixing equipment are really needed.

I may opt to run some composed music over the whole thing to give myself some cover. But, that's a creative decision as much as a technical helper. Decisions, decisions.
  • 0

#4 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:15 PM

I spend the day cutting this dialog together and think to myself, "This works." The next day I listen to it and think, "This sucks."

I'm going to have to use something like a Behringer DSP2024P to alter pitch in the live mix. This post massaging isn't quite getting it. Maybe, I can also juice up the signal with a touch of reverb or one of the other SFX the unit can do. The more I can preset and record with, the less time I'll spend polishing all that post data. All this turd polishing has already gotten tiresome.
  • 0

#5 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 22 October 2009 - 09:28 AM

Gee, where have we all read this before: Test, Test, Test....

My impression of most pitch changers is they're far from perfect. Any substantial pitch up/down and they start to develop that digital "gravel-ly" sound similar to badly processed and compressed Internet audio.

Rather than a digital pitch changer you might try a slight time scale change (without pitch correction) for the two voices, one up, one down. A very slight time base change can be very effective at times. Too much and the voices start to sound alien and/or chipmunk but a little can be just right.

I'm a real snob when it comes to effects gear, if it doesn't say Aphex, Orban, Eventide, or Yamaha on it, it's garage band gear to me.
  • 0

#6 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:49 AM

Gee, where have we all read this before: Test, Test, Test....

My impression of most pitch changers is they're far from perfect. Any substantial pitch up/down and they start to develop that digital "gravel-ly" sound similar to badly processed and compressed Internet audio.

Rather than a digital pitch changer you might try a slight time scale change (without pitch correction) for the two voices, one up, one down. A very slight time base change can be very effective at times. Too much and the voices start to sound alien and/or chipmunk but a little can be just right.

I'm a real snob when it comes to effects gear, if it doesn't say Aphex, Orban, Eventide, or Yamaha on it, it's garage band gear to me.


I was doing the 1-2% pitch without preserving tempo filter as a post thing. I'm still looking for a better solution. I'll see what the Behringer can do. I've got mostly Behrenger stuff and have been happy with it so far. Probably, because I don't own better so I don't know better. Even if the SFX aren't that much better than post, at least they'll be on the mixer side and save me a hell of a lot of polishing.
  • 0

#7 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 22 October 2009 - 09:26 PM

Another idea:

Construct a dead ADR room so that you don't have room tone to deal with. The absolutely best bang for the buck in sound absorption material is duct board. That's the 1" fiberglass boards backed with aluminum foil the HVAC people use to construct ducts and plenums. Line 100% of the walls and ceiling with that stuff in a plush carpeted room and you can hear the pulse in your inner ear. Get the stuff that has a black surface, the black is a substance that helps to keep the board from shedding fiberglass. It should cost around $50 per 5'X10' sheet.
  • 0

#8 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 23 October 2009 - 08:00 AM

On the pitch changer on this Behringer I end up with two voices. It's supposed to do one, two or three, or so it implies in the instructions. Does anyone know what button to flip and make it do just one voice? The instructions are pretty incomplete on this darn thing.
  • 0

#9 Phil Connolly

Phil Connolly
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 377 posts
  • Director
  • London

Posted 23 October 2009 - 09:20 AM

Anyone have some handy and current rules of thumb on what highs and lows should be chopped off for various outputs?

Stereo optical film print?

DTS?

Audio through commercial, digital projection systems?

Onboard, TV speakers.

Average home theater?

Premium, 5.1 or 7.1 home theater?

What might be a compromise, one-size-fits-all set of levels? If not, could I mix a set of broad levels for better systems and a narrow set for TV and internet?


Normally the playback system would automatically reduce the frequency response - eg.. TV speakers will only reproduce the frequencies they are able to - you don't need to pre-filter the audio.

Broadcast masters have full frequency response audio - even though 95% of TV's are no able to reproduce the full range of frequencies.

The main issue with creating audio masters for different formats is dynamic range, typically TV mix's have the same frequency response as theatrical mix's, but significantly less dynamic range.

This is prevent people at home having to ride the volume level - when listening in less then ideal conditions. Also TV commercials are mixed very loudly - so the audio levels of your mix for TV needs to at the same loudness - or the ad breaks crash in at a much higher level.

So in general your going to need Two mixes a TV mix and a Theatrical - but anymore then that would be too much effort to keep track of, for diminishing returns.
  • 0

#10 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 23 October 2009 - 09:51 AM

Normally the playback system would automatically reduce the frequency response - eg.. TV speakers will only reproduce the frequencies they are able to - you don't need to pre-filter the audio.

Broadcast masters have full frequency response audio - even though 95% of TV's are no able to reproduce the full range of frequencies.

The main issue with creating audio masters for different formats is dynamic range, typically TV mix's have the same frequency response as theatrical mix's, but significantly less dynamic range.

This is prevent people at home having to ride the volume level - when listening in less then ideal conditions. Also TV commercials are mixed very loudly - so the audio levels of your mix for TV needs to at the same loudness - or the ad breaks crash in at a much higher level.

So in general your going to need Two mixes a TV mix and a Theatrical - but anymore then that would be too much effort to keep track of, for diminishing returns.



My favorite box for reducing dynamic range transparently is the Aphex 320A Compellor.

In theatrical playback the projector sound system (A Chain) running Dolby SR and SRD/Sony/DTS is adjusted to reproduce the sound without coloration. The following equalizers/amplifiers/speakers (B Chain) are adjusted to produce a sound that's uniform from house to house. This principle is most rigidly followed by the THX system where the entire reproduction system is designed and adjusted to meet a fixed standard. The final mixes for commercial releases are done in rooms designed to mimic movie theater acoustics so that those mixes are exactly right to play in theaters.

Radio mixes (which would be similar to home TV mixes) are often done with relatively small speakers about 6' away from the mixing position to emulate consumer listening situations. A couple of the favorite speakers used are Yamaha NS-10's and JBL Control-5's. The final mix is often checked in mono on a very small speaker like a JBL Control-1, built-in console cue speaker, etc. to make certain there are no stereo phasing issues and that voices are intelligible on crap equipment.
  • 0

#11 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 23 October 2009 - 10:26 AM

Phil and Hal,

Thanks for the answers. I had always been producing 2 tier sound- full range for good systems and chopped ends for TV. I didn't know if anything had changed while I was out of the mix for a while. I confess that I don't know much about 5.1 and higher sound. I'll probably stick with stereo and keep things simple.

Liam at Behringer in CA straightened out my Virtualizer Pro unit. He said to run one line out through the Mon Send and back into CH 2. This pulls the second voice off and terminates it in CH 2 leaving the single, pitch altered voice in CH 1 which makes it to the computer. Liam really saved the day for me. He was a genuinely nice guy, as well.

Companies like Behringer can stuff more and more capability into fewer units. The end result is a wickedly complex little widget.

My room is pretty quiet. It's not perfect-null. But, it's not real far from it. I've got mattresses and carpet panels all around in a cave-like configuration. I made these carpet panels for location sound. They're 4' x 6' rectangles of thick carpet screwed onto PVC pipe frames. They have jam-on legs so they can free stand. Then, I've got two on the top making a carpet ceiling.

I'm using this Behringer Shark DSP110 to gate, compress, and low cut now anyway. It's what I use on really noisy locations. It's working here too.
  • 0

#12 Phil Connolly

Phil Connolly
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 377 posts
  • Director
  • London

Posted 23 October 2009 - 03:35 PM

I think 5.1 on movies for TV use tends to be someth close to the theatrical mix - well thats what the channel I do a bit of work for in the UK does - it broadcasts a dynamic range compressed mix on its SD channel and a full range 5.1 mix on the HD channel. I guess assuming that the people listening to the 5.1 mix - are more likley to have speakers suitable for the mix then the SD stereo listeners.
  • 0

#13 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 23 October 2009 - 04:49 PM

Phil,

So, I'd probably be okay running full dynamic range stereo on the base mix and compress it towards the center for TV and internet? Keep it simple?


Hal,

I'm sure I'd be rightly, well-wowed by your better list of premium equipment. But, I do have to say that this Behringer gear is an awful lot of bang for buck for a no-budger like me. I'm running the Eurorack MXB1002 10 channel mixer (AC and DC w/ phantom), Shark DSP110, DSP2024P Virtuallizer Pro and HA400 4X headphone dist which I use to breakout to amps and headphones coming from the computer.
  • 0

#14 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 23 October 2009 - 10:06 PM

Hal,

I'm sure I'd be rightly, well-wowed by your better list of premium equipment. But, I do have to say that this Behringer gear is an awful lot of bang for buck for a no-budger like me. I'm running the Eurorack MXB1002 10 channel mixer (AC and DC w/ phantom), Shark DSP110, DSP2024P Virtuallizer Pro and HA400 4X headphone dist which I use to breakout to amps and headphones coming from the computer.


I cheat: The day business is building and fixing radio stations. I run up on orphans from time to time that can trade out some time for. That's how I got my Compellor, 32 Channel Yahama production board, Yamaho processor, etc. I got my brand new MKH416 and Rycote softie kit as an equal swap for a 12 channel on-air board I had rebuilt and prewired to punch blocks for a personal project. I also can take chances on ebay gear since I can fix it.

Behringer gear isn't all that bad. Like most less expensive gear its main fault is it won't take hard use. Frankly I had a real bad experience with a piece of Behringer gear that didn't meet the AES digital specifications and wouldn't talk reliably to other, more professional, gear.
  • 0

#15 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 23 October 2009 - 11:51 PM

I cheat: The day business is building and fixing radio stations. I run up on orphans from time to time that can trade out some time for. That's how I got my Compellor, 32 Channel Yahama production board, Yamaho processor, etc. I got my brand new MKH416 and Rycote softie kit as an equal swap for a 12 channel on-air board I had rebuilt and prewired to punch blocks for a personal project. I also can take chances on ebay gear since I can fix it.

Behringer gear isn't all that bad. Like most less expensive gear its main fault is it won't take hard use. Frankly I had a real bad experience with a piece of Behringer gear that didn't meet the AES digital specifications and wouldn't talk reliably to other, more professional, gear.


How's this for ironic: I spent the last half of today chasing down static in my line. It ended up being the power supply to the DSP110. It wasn't there yesterday. So, I guess the coils started failing in the transformer some time today. Of course, it was the very last thing I checked. Thank God I have a small system. I saw the techs at the local university's TV station take days to chase a bad wire out of their system.

What are the chances you might have one kicking around? Behringer Model DSPUL to fit a Shark DSP110? Now that I've plugged the thing in and recorded with it, I hate to try and do without it. It's like having a genius riding the mixer all the time.
  • 0

#16 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 24 October 2009 - 08:28 AM

How's this for ironic: I spent the last half of today chasing down static in my line. It ended up being the power supply to the DSP110. It wasn't there yesterday. So, I guess the coils started failing in the transformer some time today. Of course, it was the very last thing I checked. Thank God I have a small system. I saw the techs at the local university's TV station take days to chase a bad wire out of their system.

What are the chances you might have one kicking around? Behringer Model DSPUL to fit a Shark DSP110? Now that I've plugged the thing in and recorded with it, I hate to try and do without it. It's like having a genius riding the mixer all the time.

I don't have that supply. What does it say on the supply itself with respect to output voltage and current? I often replace consumer grade wall wart style supplies with commericial brick supplies, often finding great deals on ebay. I cut the power plug and cord off the junk supply to connect to the new supply. Cobbling up a case can be a pain, I've been known to use small hardware store toolboxes for low rent cases.

dbm pro audio in NYC lists replacement DSPUL's for $20.00. Their part number is: 0TRA-052. http://www.dbmproaud.../behrparts.html
  • 0

#17 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 24 October 2009 - 09:15 AM

I don't have that supply. What does it say on the supply itself with respect to output voltage and current? I often replace consumer grade wall wart style supplies with commericial brick supplies, often finding great deals on ebay. I cut the power plug and cord off the junk supply to connect to the new supply. Cobbling up a case can be a pain, I've been known to use small hardware store toolboxes for low rent cases.

dbm pro audio in NYC lists replacement DSPUL's for $20.00. Their part number is: 0TRA-052. http://www.dbmproaud.../behrparts.html


Excellent link, Hal. Thanks.
  • 0

#18 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 24 October 2009 - 08:34 PM

I lucked out, Hal. Behringer has a major distribution warehouse up in Memphis. I should be back in the stew by Tuesday.
  • 0


Paralinx LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

rebotnix Technologies

Metropolis Post

FJS International, LLC

Opal

Abel Cine

Technodolly

Rig Wheels Passport

Visual Products

Ritter Battery

The Slider

Willys Widgets

Wooden Camera

Aerial Filmworks

CineTape

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Tai Audio

Glidecam

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Aerial Filmworks

Visual Products

Opal

CineTape

Rig Wheels Passport

The Slider

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Wooden Camera

Abel Cine

rebotnix Technologies

CineLab

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

Tai Audio

Technodolly

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International, LLC

Ritter Battery

Metropolis Post

Willys Widgets