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"Shutter effect shots" Private Ryan


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#1 Olivier Martinez

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 05:44 PM

Anyone knows how Kaminski made those shutter shots in the battle scene? And a these days, there are lot of those shots in contemporary commervials and films too, which different possibilities we have to achieve them? I guess this could be a question for Mr Mullen.
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#2 John Sprung

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 06:02 PM

It's just a variable shutter closed down to something small like 45 degrees or 60 or some such.....



-- J.S.
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#3 Chris Keth

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 11:11 PM

It's just a variable shutter closed down to something small like 45 degrees or 60 or some such.....



-- J.S.


Yup. On video it would be something like 1/200th of a second shutter speed.
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#4 Olivier Martinez

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 03:23 AM

Thank you both! I`ve already tested it on video with a shorter shutter speed, but didn`t get those results. Is there something additional in the post to be looking for maybe?
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#5 Chris Keth

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 11:20 AM

Thank you both! I`ve already tested it on video with a shorter shutter speed, but didn`t get those results. Is there something additional in the post to be looking for maybe?


What was your test subject? Motion has to be quite fast before you really notice it. Also, video doesn't quite do it the same as film. I'm not sure the difference in how it captures frames, but it never looks quite as good.
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#6 John Sprung

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:55 PM

Thank you both! I`ve already tested it on video with a shorter shutter speed, but didn`t get those results. Is there something additional in the post to be looking for maybe?


The other thing is the frame rate. Film is 24 frames per second. If you shoot video at 24p with a 1/200 second exposure, the motion sampling would be equivalent to film at 24 fps with a shutter angle of 43.2 degrees -- plenty close enough to 45. If the video is 60i, you have too many images per second, and so they're not far enough apart for the effect you want.



-- J.S.
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#7 Olivier Martinez

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 06:02 PM

I shot a boxing scene in 25fps/200 shutter, but all I got was sharp looking images - no "stroboscopical" or shutter effect. In the AC from 98, Kaminski was interviewed about the making of that effect, but I really don`t remember how he made it work, but I know, it was more than only that change of the exposure time.
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#8 Chris Keth

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 07:27 PM

I shot a boxing scene in 25fps/200 shutter, but all I got was sharp looking images - no "stroboscopical" or shutter effect. In the AC from 98, Kaminski was interviewed about the making of that effect, but I really don`t remember how he made it work, but I know, it was more than only that change of the exposure time.


By "200 shutter," do you mean 200 degree shutter or 1/200th of a second shutter speed?

I'm pretty sure it was just the narrow shutter angle and a lot of fast motion. I've shot with that shutter angle and it worked for me.
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#9 Chris Millar

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 07:50 PM

I reckon a lot of the particles flying through the air - dirt and wotnot - help make the effect more apparent ...
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#10 K Borowski

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 11:22 AM

They used a silver retention process, and a one stop push on I think EXR 200T too, so the look of the movie is due to several different factors, not just the shutter. . .

They also had to use a special color for blood, so that it would have its normal bright-red coloration, because they intentionally filtered the movie to make it look off-color as well. I think it was a suede or tobacco filter, or something similar.

There's an excellent article on the movie in AC, probably the issue Olivier refers to.

Edited by Karl Borowski, 17 October 2009 - 11:23 AM.

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#11 Chris Keth

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 12:29 PM

They used a silver retention process, and a one stop push on I think EXR 200T too, so the look of the movie is due to several different factors, not just the shutter. . .

They also had to use a special color for blood, so that it would have its normal bright-red coloration, because they intentionally filtered the movie to make it look off-color as well. I think it was a suede or tobacco filter, or something similar.

There's an excellent article on the movie in AC, probably the issue Olivier refers to.


But none of those things affect motion rendition (except the silver retention, kind of. The increase in contrast would increase apparent sharpness, which may help out the stuttery motion), which is what we're talking about here. ;)
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#12 K Borowski

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 01:03 PM

But none of those things affect motion rendition (except the silver retention, kind of. The increase in contrast would increase apparent sharpness, which may help out the stuttery motion), which is what we're talking about here. ;)


Chris, you are right.

I probably should have quoted him; I was referring to these things when the other Chris brought up the "dirt and wotnot." They were accentuated IMO, more by silver retension and a one-stop push than anything pertaining to the shutter angle.
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#13 Thomas James

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 05:13 PM

I shot 60 frames per second at 1/500th of a second shutter speed and it looked stroboscopic to me. By the way its called the Gladiator look not the Saving Private Ryan effect when you shoot motion as if it were a series of still photographs.
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#14 Michael Nash

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 07:32 PM

By the way its called the Gladiator look not the Saving Private Ryan effect when you shoot motion as if it were a series of still photographs.



Well people were talking about "that Saving Private Ryan effect" in the two year interim before Gladiator came out... :P

I don't think there's any "real" name for it; just anything that describes a "fast shutter effect" or a reference to whichever popular movie where people have seen it.
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#15 Igor Trajkovski

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 08:45 PM

Motion vise, apart from small shutter angles,
it was also filmed at different frame rates,
image shakers on the camera were used to
vibrate when expolsions went off and out-of-phase shutter.


Links: ICG - Janusz Kaminski, ASC
About out-of-phase shutter in the last paragraph here.


Change in frame rate can be seen as Tom
walks out of the water and starts observing the beach.
As the camera closes into CU, there is a change from 24 to 12fps.
In the same take.

Half frame rate as he watches the soldier/s hiding at the baricade,
the first part when the flamethrower starts exploding,
when the soldier searches his arm...

When he holds his helmet full with bloody water,
it is 12fps and a lot of motion blur, maybe 180 shutter (1/24sec),
and as he puts his helmet on it returns to 24 fps. (back to reality)

Just pop your DVD copy and start advancing frame by frame.

...

From the above mentioned tricks i could not
pinpoint ( in the chaos :) ) the out-of-phase shutter moments ...

Just wandering, are they maybe subtly used...
It's late, will check tomorrow for a sample.

....

One of the method for halving your fps is with posterize time (in AE).
Just adjust the target frame rate parameter to half of your project FPS.
Project/footage 24fps, posterize at 12.
Or even to some odd number. :)

Try different shutter speeds for your half fps moments.
For more staccato go with faster shutter.
The motion blur from slower shutter (~1/24) can give interesting FX too.


Best

Igor
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#16 Olivier Martinez

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 12:05 PM

Thanks to all of you for your responses, but I really think, Igor is right in the way I thought about that effect. Tanks again Igor!

Best. Olivier
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