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red one and cantar


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#1 lukka matijevec

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 11:05 AM

I have a big problem with timecode sync. My red one does not completly sync with cantar. Is there somebody who can help me?....I'm shooting on 23.98 fps TC INT so it's in free run all day....cantar is set to 23.98 non drop fps...but still..there is allways off...When i put lemo in looks like it's in sync but when i put reds QT proxy in fpc and cantar files and use merge clip by timecode there is always soud from 30 to 40 sec before...WHY? please help... :angry:
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#2 John Brawley

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 03:50 AM

I have a big problem with timecode sync. My red one does not completly sync with cantar. Is there somebody who can help me?....I'm shooting on 23.98 fps TC INT so it's in free run all day....cantar is set to 23.98 non drop fps...but still..there is allways off...When i put lemo in looks like it's in sync but when i put reds QT proxy in fpc and cantar files and use merge clip by timecode there is always soud from 30 to 40 sec before...WHY? please help... :angry:



Hi Lukka.

Are you jamming the internal RED timecode from the Cantar via a 5pin Lemo ? Then disconnecting ?

RED's internal clock isn't as accurate as the Aaton's You should use a GMT or a LOCKIT box connected all the time and jam the clock with your Cantar.

I am currently shooting an episodic TV series using this system and it works perfectly well, day in day out.

jb
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#3 lukka matijevec

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:54 AM

Hi Lukka.

Are you jamming the internal RED timecode from the Cantar via a 5pin Lemo ? Then disconnecting ?

RED's internal clock isn't as accurate as the Aaton's You should use a GMT or a LOCKIT box connected all the time and jam the clock with your Cantar.

I am currently shooting an episodic TV series using this system and it works perfectly well, day in day out.

jb

Tnx for answer....exactly like this 5 pin lemo int red timecode and then disconecting...I'm afraid that sound dept. does not have this boxes..we will see...thanks once again...

lukka
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#4 Keith Walters

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:23 AM

RED's internal clock isn't as accurate as the Aaton's You should use a GMT or a LOCKIT box connected all the time and jam the clock with your Cantar.


There has to be something more fundamental wrong though. A sound-sync timing error of "30 to 40 sec" couldn't be caused by drift in a clock crystal. Even an old wind-up mechanical alarm clock is more accurate than that :lol:

If one system is free-running at 23.98Hz and the other at 24Hz, that would produce a timing discrepancy of about 3 seconds per hour, and over the course of a day would result in the sort of problems Lukka is talking about. Continuous Jam syncing would a workaround, but not the real answer.

Lukka, have you asked over on www.reduser.net?
Why are you shooting 23.98fps anyway?
Also, are you positive you have drop frame disabled? I've heard of exactly this problem being caused by people selecting both 23.98 AND drop frame


I am currently shooting an episodic TV series using this system and it works perfectly well, day in day out.

jb

Is that with the RED?
If so, can you give any details?

Edited by Keith Walters, 27 October 2009 - 02:28 AM.

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#5 Keith Walters

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:27 AM

This Post Deliberately Left Blank :P

(Due to an accidental duplication)
Except ... dammit, now it ISN'T blank is it?

Edited by Keith Walters, 27 October 2009 - 02:30 AM.

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#6 John Brawley

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:10 AM

There has to be something more fundamental wrong though. A sound-sync timing error of "30 to 40 sec" couldn't be caused by drift in a clock crystal. Even an old wind-up mechanical alarm clock is more accurate than that :lol:



I've certainly seen that kind of drift with Sony cameras internal clock. I wouldn't be surprised it RED was the same. And yes. $2 watches from Chinatown often appear to keep better time.

That's why it's standard practise with drama double system sound to shoot with external clocks such as the GMT or the clockit. The camera clocks just aren't accurate enough. Many recorder clocks (fostex, HHB) aren't as accurate as the Clockits or the Aaton's. Not sure about the clockit byt the GMT drift is specd to be 2/10th of a second over 8 hours. It's usually less than that. If using a Cantar or an Origin C it will even tell you how much it's drifted since the last jam.


Im shooting a comedy series for the ABC called Lowdown with RED. Goes to air next year Keith. In your quest to see RED footage on TV Keith, check out Jesters on the Comedy channel, shot RED I believe by Hugh Miller. Also most of the current Hungry Jacks commercials on air. I also shot a pilot for a comedy series called "I can't believe it's not better" which is going to air December 3 on the comedy channel.

jb
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#7 Keith Walters

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 08:15 PM

I've certainly seen that kind of drift with Sony cameras internal clock. I wouldn't be surprised it RED was the same. And yes. $2 watches from Chinatown often appear to keep better time.

That's why it's standard practise with drama double system sound to shoot with external clocks such as the GMT or the clockit. The camera clocks just aren't accurate enough. Many recorder clocks (fostex, HHB) aren't as accurate as the Clockits or the Aaton's. Not sure about the clockit byt the GMT drift is specd to be 2/10th of a second over 8 hours. It's usually less than that. If using a Cantar or an Origin C it will even tell you how much it's drifted since the last jam.


One of life's little mysteries, since technically, improving the accuracy would be a trivial design task.

Actually, it doesn't matter much what time you set them to, as long as it's the SAME time.
Maybe they deliberately degrade it so people don't come to rely on it, and re-sync as they're meant to do.
Explains why clapper boards still live on in all-video productions anyway; cheap insurance.

In your quest to see RED footage on TV Keith, check out Jesters on the Comedy channel, shot RED I believe by Hugh Miller. ... I also shot a pilot for a comedy series called "I can't believe it's not better" which is going to air December 3 on the comedy channel.


Free-to Air or it didn't happen! :D
(I'll accept Go! on an emergency basis only).
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#8 John Brawley

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 05:39 AM

One of life's little mysteries, since technically, improving the accuracy would be a trivial design task.

Actually, it doesn't matter much what time you set them to, as long as it's the SAME time.
Maybe they deliberately degrade it so people don't come to rely on it, and re-sync as they're meant to do.
Explains why clapper boards still live on in all-video productions anyway; cheap insurance.


Clappers are also important for other reasons. They are like a starters-countdown for a race. The acting equivalent of "on your marks...get set..." It's very useful for actors especially to have the ritual of this buildup to a take and the "action" word.

Below is a shot of the camera as it's rigged most of the time. GMT is the box in the middle with the grey cable. Behind that is a wireless audio link. Cooke 15-40 T2. Mantis Hand held. This is a little trolly the grip made up to park the camera in between setups.

Free-to Air or it didn't happen! :D
(I'll accept Go! on an emergency basis only).


I did this music clip for less than 10K and shot in a day... (it's been nominated for an ARIA for best clip) It's been on free to air a lot.

Here for the clip

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Visual Products

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Opal

The Slider

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