Jump to content


Photo

RED with anamorphic


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
32 replies to this topic

#1 NatashaBedu

NatashaBedu

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 27 October 2009 - 01:14 PM

Hi there,

Currently in the middle of testing the Red (build 20) with Anamorphic lenses. Post production dept. is having problems unsqueezing the images. Does anyone know what settings should have on the camera and what post should be doing to make sure the footage is the right size? When they ran the footage through red rushes, final cut had problems with the squeeze and when using new software called Red Rocket and Cine X, it's cropping the top and bottom. Is this a camera issue or a post issue? Thanks in advance!
  • 0

#2 Thomas James

Thomas James
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 844 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:09 PM

So why does anyone shoot anamorphic with a digital camera? Doesn't it make more sense to stick with spherical lenses and square pixels?
  • 0

#3 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:21 PM

Anamorphic is a bit more than an aspect ratio. The lenses for it all have their own unique characteristics, and there's the whole nature of the flare and bokeh. Sadly, that's the only input i can give on the issue.
  • 0

#4 John Holland

John Holland
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2248 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London England

Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:31 PM

A lot of people have shot anamorphic with Red , Soderberg ,did it on "Che" . it sounds like a post problem to me ! maybe first time they have had to deal with it ?
  • 0

#5 Thomas James

Thomas James
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 844 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 27 October 2009 - 02:34 PM

I suppose one can argue that with widescreen 16 x 9 aspect ratios that the whole 4 perf picture frame is utilized with no waste. However because the ratio between horizontal and vertical resolution is uneven I doubt that there is any increase in picture quality from a 3 perf picture inserted in a 4 perf frame. The fact is that with the move to digital 2k and 4k projection the workflow should be optimized for those delivery formats that use square pixels and spherical lenses. I think when Red Epic offers full frame Vista Vision more cinematographers will discard anamorphic.
  • 0

#6 Saul Rodgar

Saul Rodgar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1682 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:22 PM

I think when Red Epic offers full frame Vista Vision more cinematographers will discard anamorphic.


Again, unless one likes the anamorphic look . . .
  • 0

#7 NatashaBedu

NatashaBedu

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 27 October 2009 - 08:24 PM

Again, unless one likes the anamorphic look . . .


We're going for the specific look that anamorphic lenses give (flares, focus, etc) so its not just for the aspect ratio. I've tried to research how they did it on Ché but i'm getting no answers. Anyone have any idea? Anyone? (crickets...)
  • 0

#8 Satsuki Murashige

Satsuki Murashige
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3510 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 28 October 2009 - 04:02 AM

Does anyone know what settings should have on the camera and what post should be doing to make sure the footage is the right size?

Camera project settings should be "4K ANA" or "3K ANA". This should allow you to see your footage unsqueezed out of the camera's HD-SDI preview on set. Post needs to make sure they rescale the footage as "Fit Width 2x" to render out unsqueezed Prores files. Other than that, not sure what you're Final Cut settings should be.

Is this a camera issue or a post issue?

It's definitely a post issue. Red Rushes has a "Scale" function under the "Resize" tab. Maybe the post guys forgot to check the scale button, or to set "Fit/Stretch" as "Fit Width 2x"?
  • 0

#9 John Brawley

John Brawley
  • Sustaining Members
  • 834 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Atlanta Georgia

Posted 28 October 2009 - 05:59 AM

So why does anyone shoot anamorphic with a digital camera? Doesn't it make more sense to stick with spherical lenses and square pixels?



Because it looks nothing like spherical lenses.

jb
  • 0

#10 Thomas James

Thomas James
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 844 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 28 October 2009 - 01:07 PM

Yes but the look of anamorphic other than a preference towards anamorphic lenses is still concerned with optimizing for film projection output. However with digital origination and with digital projection we ought to be developing technolgies optimized for digital rather than be stuck with mimicking film and all of its inherent limitations.

If one desires a more horizontal stretched out look such as anamorphic rather than use crude technologies such as interlacing which thins out the resolution of the image in the vertical dimension and anamorphic which thins out the resolution image in the horizontal dimension we should take full advantage of the more complex digital technologies were we can decide exactly where the image should lose resolution. So rather than using crude anamorphic lenses or sensors which are built into the camera we should be using the newer digital anthropomorphic technology based on fractal mathematics that uses space variant pixels where more and smaller size pixels are concentrated in the center or fovea of the artificial retina and less and bigger pixels are loated on the peripheral areas of the sensor.

An example of this newer anthropomorphic lens photography was in the movie "The Assasination of Jesse James" which created a tunnel vision effect where the peripheral areas of the image were clouded.
  • 0

#11 John Holland

John Holland
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2248 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London England

Posted 28 October 2009 - 01:26 PM

Thomas , i have no idea of your age !! but you cant have ever seen a anamorphic film shot well printed well and projected well , if you havent yet ? think you should try and see one !
  • 0

#12 Rob Vogt

Rob Vogt
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 437 posts
  • Other
  • New York

Posted 28 October 2009 - 01:49 PM

An example of this newer anthropomorphic lens photography was in the movie "The Assasination of Jesse James" which created a tunnel vision effect where the peripheral areas of the image were clouded.


Jesse James was not anamorphic nor was it digital so there were no pixles. The distorted shots were done in camera with home made glass.
  • 0

#13 Gus Sacks

Gus Sacks
  • Sustaining Members
  • 287 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 28 October 2009 - 02:16 PM

An example of this newer anthropomorphic lens photography was in the movie "The Assasination of Jesse James" which created a tunnel vision effect where the peripheral areas of the image were clouded.


Jesse James was not anamorphic nor was it digital so there were no pixles. The distorted shots were done in camera with home made glass.


Not exactly homemade glass - Otto Nemenz put the set together with front element-less lenses and plus diopters. It certainly wasn't a post-effect, Thomas. I don't know where you get your info from, but it seems like you're talking out of your ass 99% of the time you post here...

Also, the later builds have Anamorphic support for the desqueezing in monitoring.
  • 0

#14 K Borowski

K Borowski
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3905 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • I.A.T.S.E. Local # 600 Eastern Region

Posted 28 October 2009 - 02:24 PM

The fact is that with the move to digital 2k and 4k projection the workflow should be optimized for those delivery formats that use square pixels and spherical lenses. I think when Red Epic offers full frame Vista Vision more cinematographers will discard anamorphic.


What the hell are you talking about?

For all we know he is shooting an anamorphic music video for YouTube, so 2K or 4K projectors is totally totally off-topic and inappropriate here.
  • 0

#15 Thomas James

Thomas James
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 844 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 28 October 2009 - 03:28 PM

The Jesse James tunnel vision effects were accomplished with resolution variant lenses and shot on film however a digital camera with space variant pixels will also produce tunnel vision effects. The human retina also produces a tunnel vision effect in order to efficiently compress enourmous amounts of information but this is minimized by rapid eye movements.

As for anamorphic lenses used with film this same effect can be created using digital cameras that are composed of rectangular pixels that output a 1440x1080 resolution rather than using sensors with square pixels that output a 1920x1080 resolution which mimmicks spherical lens photography.
  • 0

#16 John Holland

John Holland
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2248 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London England

Posted 28 October 2009 - 03:41 PM

Goodness me you do talk a load of boring rubbish ! dont you .
  • 0

#17 Thomas James

Thomas James
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 844 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 28 October 2009 - 05:06 PM

I think some are confusing the terms anamorphic and anthropomorphic. The word anthropomorphic as applied to the science of robotics simply means an anthropomorphic, android or a humanoid robot. The word anthropomorphic as applied to the science of robotic machine vision simply means to design the system as close as possible in order to replicate the human eye. So in order to design an anthropomorphic retina or sensor we would use space variant pixels so the resolution would be concentrated in the areas of the fovea and would decrease in areas surounding the periphery. This is similar in concept to depth of field were the foreground is sharper than the background. The concept of space variancy would be similar in concept to the height and width of field rather than depth of field.

When shooting on 35mm film an anthropomorphic effect can be created simply by scratching the outside of the lenses as was done with Jessie James. This effect decreases resolution along the periphery and mimics human vision.

The probelem with conventional anamorphic photography is that even thought the effects of the image being stretched in the horizontal dimension may be pleasing it will be nevertheless be undesirable to stretch the image in the central or foveal part of the image because that is where the greatest resolution is required in order gain attention to the subject.
  • 0

#18 Nick Brian Walters

Nick Brian Walters

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 29 October 2009 - 07:18 AM

Thomas, I don't think you exactly understand the difference between optics and sensor technology...I would suggest doing further research. Optics will ALWAYS be needed, and aren't an outdated piece of tech.

The quick and simple : Camera's need a lens.

As for anamorphics and screen resolution....you actually gain some resolution when filming and presenting anamorphically. You lose NOTHING, and that is the biggest point of anamorphics, is avoiding cropping....instead of chopping off resolution to meet your aspect ratio needs, you film and project anamorphically, and thus never lose a thing...in fact you gain some resolution due to the fact that the pixels are being made more compact in one dimension.

Now all this talk of human perception and such is fine, but how about coming up with a workflow and equipment, and giving us a tutorial....or creating a project based on these ideas and showing it to us?
  • 0

#19 John Brawley

John Brawley
  • Sustaining Members
  • 834 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Atlanta Georgia

Posted 29 October 2009 - 07:24 AM

##
  • 0

#20 Gus Sacks

Gus Sacks
  • Sustaining Members
  • 287 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 29 October 2009 - 10:32 AM

When shooting on 35mm film an anthropomorphic effect can be created simply by scratching the outside of the lenses as was done with Jessie James. This effect decreases resolution along the periphery and mimics human vision.


Nope you're still wrong.
  • 0


Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

FJS International, LLC

Ritter Battery

Wooden Camera

Willys Widgets

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Technodolly

Paralinx LLC

Abel Cine

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Metropolis Post

The Slider

Tai Audio

Rig Wheels Passport

Opal

CineTape

Visual Products

CineLab

rebotnix Technologies

Aerial Filmworks

Glidecam

Willys Widgets

Abel Cine

Technodolly

The Slider

Opal

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Aerial Filmworks

CineTape

Paralinx LLC

Wooden Camera

CineLab

Metropolis Post

rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Ritter Battery

FJS International, LLC

Glidecam

Rig Wheels Passport