Jump to content


Photo

Deferred pay?


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 Andre Trudel

Andre Trudel

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Silverlake/Huntington Beach CA

Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:28 PM

Deferred pay. How dose it work? I’m shooting a spec commercial for a friend who is well connected. I’m giving him the super low friend rate along with the "deferred pay" if he sells it.

DO you write a contract? Is it a percentage of what it sells for? How dose it work? Thanks for your time.
  • 0

#2 David Rakoczy

David Rakoczy
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1579 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • USA

Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:31 PM

Andre.. don't do anything without a contract... but first.. per the rules of this Forum, go to My Controls and change your screen name to your real first and last name.

The Members thank you in advance.
  • 0

#3 Andre Trudel

Andre Trudel

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Silverlake/Huntington Beach CA

Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:35 PM

Thanks David. I changed the name as well
  • 0

#4 Brian Drysdale

Brian Drysdale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5070 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:36 PM

You need to use your full real name in this forum. it's one of the rules.

Regarding deferred payments, it's usually best to realise you wont get paid at all. You can write a contract giving you a percentage of the profits (usually net on any contracts I've seen, so you are very unlikely to see anything) or whatever other payment arrangement you can agree with your friend.
  • 0

#5 David Rakoczy

David Rakoczy
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1579 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • USA

Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:46 PM

Thanks David. I changed the name as well


Well that's refreshing! You are one of the rare people who make the change without making a 'scene'.

Welcome to the boards! ;)

As a rule, if you are not getting paid as you work, you won't get paid in the end. So, take the show for experience, for the credit, for the thrill or for any other reason than for pay.. and you'll be fine.
  • 0

#6 Richard Boddington

Richard Boddington
  • Sustaining Members
  • 5482 posts
  • Director

Posted 27 October 2009 - 06:58 PM

Well that's refreshing! You are one of the rare people who make the change without making a 'scene'.

Welcome to the boards! ;)


Just out of curiosity did any one else notice that Reduser.net went to a real names policy as well just recently? They told every one that did not use their real name that their account would be deleted if they did not change over.

Interesting.

R,
  • 0

#7 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 27 October 2009 - 07:53 PM

You should definitely insist on paperwork, even when it's your friend. You should also assume that deferred pay means no pay and in the event you do get paid, it's kind of a surprise present.
  • 0

#8 Alessandro Machi

Alessandro Machi
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3318 posts
  • Other
  • California

Posted 27 October 2009 - 09:45 PM

....I’m giving him the super low friend rate along with the "deferred pay" if he sells it....


Does your friend know this?

Didn't you know that he was actually doing you the favor by allowing you to work with him?

Didn't you know that he had a friend in Belarus who would have done the shoot for free if he just paid for his airline ticket?
  • 0

#9 Jim Hyslop

Jim Hyslop
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 213 posts
  • 2nd Assistant Camera
  • Toronto, ON, Canada

Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:31 PM

I’m giving him the super low friend rate along with the "deferred pay" if he sells it.

One way you can make sure he knows it's the "friend rate" is to send him an invoice with the full amount, with the discount shown so the net amount comes out to the agreed-upon amount.

--
Jim
  • 0

#10 Brad Grimmett

Brad Grimmett
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2660 posts
  • Steadicam Operator
  • Los Angeles

Posted 30 October 2009 - 02:32 AM

Just out of curiosity did any one else notice that Reduser.net went to a real names policy as well just recently? They told every one that did not use their real name that their account would be deleted if they did not change over.

Interesting.

R,

And I remember well when some of their members came here and threw a hissy fit when we asked them to use their real name. I guess Red has started to catch up to where we were 4 or 5 years ago.
  • 0

#11 Tom Jensen

Tom Jensen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1234 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 30 October 2009 - 09:32 AM

Everybody always warned me about deferred payment. I did a movie with director Albert Pyun. Tom Karnowski, the producer had contracts drawn up and we signed them. A few years later, when I needed it most, a check came in the mail. I never did another deferred deal. By then everyone wanted you to work for free on that special project. I did so much free work, I think I was on a mailing list or something. At one point I just started looking around the house and asking for furniture whenever someone wanted a freebie. I'd say look I need a new TV and you want me to work for free? Eventually the calls stopped.
  • 0

#12 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 30 October 2009 - 10:42 AM

Sometimes, it can be useful to calculate these situations in a broader picture of gain/loss. Most of the folks, here, who can brag of their current success had to do enough stuff on a free labor basis to get established. It sucks, sure. But it's a chicken-or-egg thing. Folks don't want to hire you until you're reasonably proven. You can't get proven until you've worked enough.

I know all that sounds obvious. I don't mean to talk down. The simpler things can rise up and rule your life, often.
  • 0

#13 Tom Jensen

Tom Jensen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1234 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 30 October 2009 - 11:30 AM

Sometimes, it can be useful to calculate these situations in a broader picture of gain/loss. Most of the folks, here, who can brag of their current success had to do enough stuff on a free labor basis to get established. It sucks, sure. But it's a chicken-or-egg thing. Folks don't want to hire you until you're reasonably proven. You can't get proven until you've worked enough.

I know all that sounds obvious. I don't mean to talk down. The simpler things can rise up and rule your life, often.


I must admit, I have worked with some huge cameramen mostly on freebies but it was only because their regular guys didn't work for free. When it came back to working for money, they went back to their regular guys. It was good experience, though.
  • 0

#14 Mathew Rudenberg

Mathew Rudenberg
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 252 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 30 October 2009 - 06:03 PM

Supposedly Stallone offered the crew of Rocky a point each if they'd stay on when he couldn't pay them - but they walked...

It's fairly unlikely that a spec commercial will sell, regardless of how good it is, considering the legal hoops that have to be jumped through before the concept can even get approved. Usually specs serve as a demo of the director and DP's abilities.

Even if you do get a contract, what kind of battle might you have to fight to get that couple thousand dollars?

I have a contract for deferred pay sitting around somewhere for my first feature. It got a minor distribution deal and I imagine must be making some small amount of money, however the amount of effort and ill will I would need to expend to get some of that money just doesn't seem worth it.

I guess it would be different if the film had become a crazy hit and made tons of cash.

Like Paul says, I did a hell of a lot of freebies before I reached a point where I can make a living doing what I love, and I don't regret it at all.
  • 0

#15 JD Hartman

JD Hartman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1690 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Edison, N.J. U.S.A.

Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:52 PM

I get the whole deferred pay/no-pay thing. Just presented with that very scenario today. Deferred pay on a feature, good story line, decent crew, camera, G&E package, locations locked, reasonable schedule. Deferred pay contract was presented as a "percentage" for crew, never defined what percentage, net or gross. I bargained for a day rate and asked for transportation costs as well, as I don't agree that I should be paying out of my pocket unless there is a check waiting for me every Friday. They balked at that saying no one was getting that. Much of the crew were locals or would be taking the van, I was one of several was that was self drive. I walked away.

Was I being unreasonable to ask for my gas and tolls (100+ miles) to be covered since I might never see a dime? Otherwise, I feel I was paying for the privilege of working on their feature. "Love for film", doesn't pay the rent or put gas in my truck.

Edited by JD Hartman, 12 February 2011 - 12:54 PM.

  • 0

#16 Deniz Coker

Deniz Coker
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 42 posts
  • Producer
  • NYC/Long Island

Posted 12 February 2011 - 04:54 PM

JD I don't think that's unreasonable at all! I just dealt with some of that myself. I had luckily secured transportation and out of pockets but the crew couldn't and they spent tons on tolls and gas until they decided it was worth more to walk. I think that if you're paying or even if you're not paying, you should at least make sure no one has any out of pocket costs. I think too many people don't realize no budget doesn't mean people should waste their own money on your project. I've always been taught that you can sometimes get things off of kindness but in the very least make it worth their time. Feed them and cover the expenses. If someone's already kind enough to bring their gear and drive themselves and work for free you owe it to them. Heck when I was first starting I saved everything I could to rent cameras or borrow one from people I knew. Rental houses won't give me everything for a feature for free. I think some people fall derrière backwards into a crew that is providing them with gear that would cost thousands in itself to rent for a day for free. It is what it is. I do believe in taking a project if you believe in it, I've been lucky to come across people who have been honestly trying to do their best and it's gotten me more experience and footage in the long run. Wow, I just went on a rant! Sorry to make you all read that!
  • 0

#17 Alain Lumina

Alain Lumina
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • Director

Posted 14 February 2011 - 02:02 AM

Deferred and "spec" are different in my opinion.

I "deferred" some pay until I got my next day job paycheck. So I paid half on set and half from my next paycheck a few weeks later. But it was a definite ( though small) amount, that I said they would get and they did.

Even the PMSing AC who quit the last day.

I also offer "spec" points based on the gross if the things gets sold after agents, lawyers, and other slime balls take their cut.
  • 0

#18 Brian Drysdale

Brian Drysdale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5070 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 14 February 2011 - 04:22 AM

I also offer "spec" points based on the gross if the things gets sold after agents, lawyers, and other slime balls take their cut.


Thought that would be the net profit.
  • 0

#19 K Borowski

K Borowski
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3905 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • I.A.T.S.E. Local # 600 Eastern Region

Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:17 AM

The only deferred pay I would do is the type Alain is talking about.

As for giving "friends" breaks, "friends" are the most demanding and least understanding. Don't give even them a discount that is too large. Another problem about working with friends is that they are likely to NOT be your friends after a hard shoot. Just look at history for tonnes and tonnes of examples if you don't believe me. . .
  • 0

#20 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11944 posts
  • Other

Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:16 AM

I always pay everyone at least something and I do not promise "deferred" pay, which means no pay.


If I can't pay people I don't do the show and I take the position that neither should anyone else. I also take the position that I don't work for free unless there's a very good reason to. Because most freebies are crap, because there isn't any money, there is very rarely a good reason to do them.

A couple of years ago I had an absolutely golden opportunity to shoot a TV pilot about an air force pilot. We had RAF cooperation lined up, we had jet fighters, we had everything. I wanted to produce this thing more than I have ever wanted to do anything, professionally. It would have been great.

I couldn't pay people so I didn't do it, and I will regret not doing it for the rest of my life, but I would make the same decision now.

Asking people to work for free (or "deferred", or whatever, which also means free) is almost always wrong.

P
  • 0


rebotnix Technologies

Paralinx LLC

Wooden Camera

Glidecam

Technodolly

CineTape

Visual Products

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

Tai Audio

Willys Widgets

Opal

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Aerial Filmworks

The Slider

Ritter Battery

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Metropolis Post

FJS International, LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Willys Widgets

Aerial Filmworks

Rig Wheels Passport

Wooden Camera

Metropolis Post

Visual Products

The Slider

CineLab

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Paralinx LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Technodolly

Abel Cine

FJS International, LLC

Tai Audio

Glidecam

Opal

Gamma Ray Digital Inc