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16x9 super 8


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#1 Mike Currell

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 07:20 AM

Hi
Just wondering about achieving 16x9 when using super 8. I have heard about max8- too much hassle and dollars, and I realise that it can be converted during telecine but how about this,

Would a 16x9 "mask" fitted into a mattebox (kompendium) do the business?
Having a reflex viewfinder ie.. u see wat the lens sees....you would also see 16x9 in the eyecup.

Would it work on a zoom lens as well as prime lenses?

:blink:
Any comments?
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#2 Jean-Louis Seguin

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 09:35 AM

Hi Mike,

In my opinion, the best way to achieve a 16:9 ratio in Super8 is to leave the camera alone and invest in an anamorphic lens in front of the camera that gives you a 1.33 compression ratio. There are a few Century 16:9 lenses on eBay right now for under $500.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis
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#3 Oliver Gläser

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 12:49 PM

Hi Mike,

In my opinion, the best way to achieve a 16:9 ratio in Super8 is to leave the camera alone and invest in an anamorphic lens in front of the camera that gives you a 1.33 compression ratio. There are a few Century 16:9 lenses on eBay right now for under $500.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis


Max 8mm is not a difficult format to convert most cameras too... involves very little work, and can be done by most people with any technical skill within a couple of hours. that being said it also depends on the camera that you intend to shoot with. A beaulieu for example is a perfect camera to make this modification too, as the C mount allows you too use lenses intended to cover a larger aperture. For my 4008 ZMII I have made the modification, and use my Zeiss super speeds as well as the stock angenieux which all cover the format.

I believe this to be advantageous over an anamorphic adapter for a couple of reasons. First you still see a normal aspect ratio picture in your viewfinder. Second, Every piece of glass you put if front of other pieces of glass, will degrade the image and reduce light transmission. Most of those lenses are intended for Projectors and not for in front of cameras, although I am sure that you can use them for such.

anyway, my two cents... thanks for reading.
Oliver
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#4 Oliver Gläser

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 12:51 PM

Hi
Just wondering about achieving 16x9 when using super 8. I have heard about max8- too much hassle and dollars, and I realise that it can be converted during telecine but how about this,

Would a 16x9 "mask" fitted into a mattebox (kompendium) do the business?
Having a reflex viewfinder ie.. u see wat the lens sees....you would also see 16x9 in the eyecup.

Would it work on a zoom lens as well as prime lenses?

:blink:
Any comments?



also, any kind of matte that you put on your mattebox, that close to the lens will have the undesired effect of not being a sharp line. and it will become sharper or softer depending on how you focus. something else to keep in mind...

oliver
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#5 Rick Palidwor

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 05:52 PM

Max 8mm is not a difficult format to convert most cameras too... involves very little work, and can be done by most people with any technical skill within a couple of hours.


I totally agree with Oliver, especially if by "Max-8" you are talking about working with Pro8 (way too expensive). I know people who modify cameras for $100 or less. Then you only need a telecine service that will transfer with modified gate. There are many out there. Two in Canada are Photoplays.ca and Frame Discreet.

If you are finishing on video you could consider just masking it with your digital editing program.

If you are not familiar with our "super-duper 8" (Max-8) feature check these frame grabs: http://friendlyfiref...framegrabs.html

Rick
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#6 Adam Garner

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 12:48 AM

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

Some compressed footage here :
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#7 Oliver Gläser

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 01:24 AM

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

Some compressed footage here :



Its like the difference between regular and super 8mm... 10% can be a lot.

There is another facility in canada that Transfers Max 8mm - Mine!

Newsreel Productions in Vancouver BC. Check out my website for more information about what we/I offer.

Here is the Vimeo link to the Super 8mm reel

and here is some stabilization Examples

Thanks

Oliver
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#8 Mike Currell

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 04:30 PM

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

Some compressed footage here :



Thanks all for the responses. My only concern is the framing and trying to guess it.
Adam, your footage is gr8. I am also looking at aquiring a 1014xls and having seen your footage I am just about convinced. May I ask how you did your telecine for the vimeo vids?
Also on the Vimeo page you respond to some comments re using different lenses (wide angle) on the 1014xls - are you talking about adapters here? as I thought the canon lens was fixed??

Thanks all
Mike
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#9 David F Schaaf

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 11:52 PM

I totally agree with Oliver, especially if by "Max-8" you are talking about working with Pro8 (way too expensive). I know people who modify cameras for $100 or less. Then you only need a telecine service that will transfer with modified gate. There are many out there. Two in Canada are Photoplays.ca and Frame Discreet.

If you are finishing on video you could consider just masking it with your digital editing program.

If you are not familiar with our "super-duper 8" (Max-8) feature check these frame grabs: http://friendlyfiref...framegrabs.html

Rick



how do you get a camera modified??? I have a 1014xl-s and I can't find any places which can modify the gate. thx
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#10 Paul Korver

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 12:12 AM

Hey All,
No one has brought this up so far but you might find interesting a little chart we did that shows actual frame dimensions, native resolution (in sq. mm) and effective resolutions (in sq mm.) of small format and odd format stocks (including Max 8mm) after 16x9 extraction for HD telecine.

http://www.cinelicious.tv/?page_id=39

It's about half-way down the page.

In compiling the chart I found it interesting that Max 8mm, which is often touted as a "widescreen" format, is actually 1.5:1 ...which is closer to 4:3 (1.33:1) than it is to 16x9 (1.78:1). Food for thought.

We've transferred some anamorphic Super 8mm that looked great though. I forget the exact camera setup. It was done by Super 8mm filmmaker Moises Perez.

Goooooooo Super 8mm!

-Paul
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#11 Rick Palidwor

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 09:03 PM

how do you get a camera modified??? I have a 1014xl-s and I can't find any places which can modify the gate. thx


Mitch Perkins offers this. he is at: www.photoplays.ca
However, the gates on those Canons are "soft" (plastic, not metal) and he may decline as it is riskier than other Cameras. I know because he did my 814XLS and he complained about the delicacy of the gate.
Rick
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#12 daniel mahlknecht

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 07:19 AM

Hi,

I just uploaded some super8 (actually single8 shot with a Fujica zc-1000) shot anamorphically with an iscorama lens. In this particular case I used a 25mm fix lens and a ISCORAMA-ANAMORPHOT 1,5x - 36.
If you use a zoom lens then the ISCORAMA-ANAMORPHOT 1,5x - 54 works better, as you can use your lens from abouth 11mm on without vignetting (I have tested it on my Bauer A512 and the Beaulieu ZM4, as well as on the original Fujica zc-1000 Zoomlens).
The second part of the roll I shot in 4:3 without the iscorama so you have the direct comparison.
No cropping at all was used on the footage.

watch the footage on The sharpnes of the anamorphic footage is great, unfortunately the compression on vimeo has diminued it a lot.

daniel
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#13 Moises Perez

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 12:55 AM

Hey All,
No one has brought this up so far but you might find interesting a little chart we did that shows actual frame dimensions, native resolution (in sq. mm) and effective resolutions (in sq mm.) of small format and odd format stocks (including Max 8mm) after 16x9 extraction for HD telecine.

http://www.cinelicious.tv/?page_id=39

It's about half-way down the page.

In compiling the chart I found it interesting that Max 8mm, which is often touted as a "widescreen" format, is actually 1.5:1 ...which is closer to 4:3 (1.33:1) than it is to 16x9 (1.78:1). Food for thought.

We've transferred some anamorphic Super 8mm that looked great though. I forget the exact camera setup. It was done by Super 8mm filmmaker Moises Perez.

Goooooooo Super 8mm!

-Paul


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#14 Moises Perez

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 01:37 AM

Hello everyone,
My apologies, I guess my previous post don't add any new information. I depressed the add replay button by accident. Anyway, I just want to mention that I had excellent results using an anamorphic attachment in front of my camera lenses. I wanted to upload a picture of my setup but I was not able to do it. However, I can e-mail you the pix if you want. This is my e-mail: reachmoy@netzero.net
Best regards,
moy
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#15 Mike Currell

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 04:54 AM

Hi,

I just uploaded some super8 (actually single8 shot with a Fujica zc-1000) shot anamorphically with an iscorama lens. In this particular case I used a 25mm fix lens and a ISCORAMA-ANAMORPHOT 1,5x - 36.
If you use a zoom lens then the ISCORAMA-ANAMORPHOT 1,5x - 54 works better, as you can use your lens from abouth 11mm on without vignetting (I have tested it on my Bauer A512 and the Beaulieu ZM4, as well as on the original Fujica zc-1000 Zoomlens).
The second part of the roll I shot in 4:3 without the iscorama so you have the direct comparison.
No cropping at all was used on the footage.

watch the footage on The sharpnes of the anamorphic footage is great, unfortunately the compression on vimeo has diminued it a lot.

daniel



Daniel, this is some of the sharpest super 8 footage I have seen! It is the first time I have bothered to allow Vimeo to download in HD as my PC is a bit slow....worth the wait! Please tell me how you did the telecine??

Yes Moises I would love to see the setup I will email you now
Cheers
Mike
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#16 daniel mahlknecht

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 08:38 AM

Hi,
actually I use a modified Bauer T610 super8 projector (with the sync components for 25f/sec and a special led lamp of telecine Fälker in germany). I film directly the film without any screen or something between the camera and the lens (as a result the image is upside down and has to be turned in final cut). I use my old JVC GY700WE CL with an selfmade c-mount adapter and a Kern Yvar 75mm lens and some macrorings.
Actually I'm very happy with the results too :-)
This kind of telecine does not work, or at least not really, with cmos chip cameras, yust in case you want to try.
The FUJI R25N in combination with the single8 pressureplate also contributes to the sharpness.

Daniel
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#17 daniel mahlknecht

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 08:52 AM

actually between the film and the lens, not the camera and the lens...
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#18 jason duncan

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:20 PM

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

Some compressed footage here :



When you frame it in your viewfinder with widescreen in mind, knowing you are going to crop the top and botton 10% (+/-), do you pan-out, or not zoom-in too close to the subject for fear of cutting off too much of the image? And I assume the subject really has to be centered when you crop a 4x3 image to 16x9?

cute kiddie by the way!

Edited by jason duncan, 30 November 2009 - 10:23 PM.

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#19 retoxproductions

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 03:25 PM

Does anyone know someone here in HOllywood that does gate modification at a reasonable price. All the alternatives seem to be from Canada!
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#20 Jerry Kokich

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:56 AM

I shoot without a modified gate at all. I just frame it in my 4:3 viewfinder for 16:9, ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so (whatever the math is). Then I transfer in HD.

The results are bad-ass. No need to mod your gate assuming you have a good lens. I've not really seen a good example of NON-mod gate vs mod-gate side by side to get a feel for quality difference. Obviously with Max-8 there's a better resolution, but I dunno if it's really noticable.

Some compressed footage here :


I am new to Super8 film making, so please forgive what may sound like naive questions. How do you do your transfer? It makes perfect sense just to frame as if you were in 16:9, but could you guide me through the next steps. Also, if you have your film processed and transferred to, say, mini dv or a hard drive, what does one tell the transfer people?

Thanks for your time.

J
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Wooden Camera

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