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RED and BOURNE style action


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#1 Craig Smith

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 05:30 AM

Hi all,

I'm wondering, is it safe to say that if one wants the utmost best motion result in shooting a bourne style movie, with lots of fast paced action, martial arts, alot of dynamic hand held camera moves, wip pans etc etc, that one should shoot 35 mm over red.

I've read alot of posts over the net, on the red forum as well, that this seems to be one of the biggest complaints of red vs film, the slower reset time of the sensor when shooting bourne style action.

This is not to say red is not a great camera, I understand it is, but just wanted to know if it would be safer to shoot film in this circumstance.

Anyone in the know your comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Craig
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#2 Gregory Middleton

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 09:56 AM

Hi all,

I'm wondering, is it safe to say that if one wants the utmost best motion result in shooting a bourne style movie, with lots of fast paced action, martial arts, alot of dynamic hand held camera moves, wip pans etc etc, that one should shoot 35 mm over red.

I've read alot of posts over the net, on the red forum as well, that this seems to be one of the biggest complaints of red vs film, the slower reset time of the sensor when shooting bourne style action.

This is not to say red is not a great camera, I understand it is, but just wanted to know if it would be safer to shoot film in this circumstance.

Anyone in the know your comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Craig


You will certainly get different looking blurs with RED vrs 35mm. Search for posts of 'rolling shutter' issues for more info.
If you want it too look exactly like "Bourne", best bet is to use the same tools.

There also many other considerations when picking format. Size, speed etc.

Good luck
g
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#3 Tom Lowe

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:45 AM

All this "Bourne" shaky-cam filming is a plague on cinema, IMO. The last James Bond picture had action that was incomprehensible, and D9 almost made me vomit from sea-sickness.

/rant
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#4 Thomas James

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 04:21 PM

I have had outstanding results shooting shaky cam handheld shots as well as handheld orbiting around the subject matter without the use of tripods or steadicams. My secret is I ramp up the framerate. Now with the proliferation of Blu-Ray disc players I can distribute this high speed shaky cam cinematography in the 720p format. With high shutter speeds I can still achieve that stroboscopic film look.
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#5 K Borowski

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 06:29 PM

Even Star Trek suffered from the shakey-cam plague, though it wasn't nearly as bad as the Bourne movies.


I think any time there is such a degree of shake (I think Bourne Identity, in the car chase scene is the right movie) that the actors struggling in the car are completely out-of-frame, is when this effect "jumps the shark."
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#6 Brad Grimmett

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 07:50 AM

All this "Bourne" shaky-cam filming is a plague on cinema, IMO.
/rant

I thought that was the perfect look for those movies. But it can certainly be overused, and often is.
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#7 timHealy

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 10:22 AM

I also liked the Bourne films and the hand held work there. It also lent itself well to Grengrass work on United 93. I also like the steadicam and handheld work for the original Law and Order. Every line moves the story. That type of coverage doesn't work for all material and content.

However for fast action coverage I prefer how film captures it. Video seems to give itself away too easily with fast moving action or fast moving camers. Perhaps some cameras and settings are better than others.

Best

Tim
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#8 Vico Martin

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 06:20 PM

For bourne look with Red I think you need to avoid fillage blurs shooting at high Fps and then speed up in post to get closer to the low Fps bourne was shooted.

But with 2K Red is not the great camera it is.
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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 07:42 PM

You can do Bourne-style action with the Red One. Just a couple of issues:

Rolling Shutter artifacts. This is generally not too noticeable except when shooting flashes, but the new M-X sensor & software has reduced the read-out time even closer to that of a spinning mirror shutter in a film camera.

Boot-up time. Well, nothing really beats a film camera in terms of the time it takes to switch on and come-up to speed, but it's become easier to not power-down the Red camera as often, and the boot-up time has shortened, but it's still something to consider. Generally, though, it's not an issue in an action film.

Avoiding Red Hard Drives. They aren't robust enough for shooting in bouncing conditions or when there are loud vibrations, etc. Just switch to the CF cards for that stuff, or use Red RAM drives.
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#10 Thomas Dobbie

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 07:48 PM

For bourne look with Red I think you need to avoid fillage blurs shooting at high Fps and then speed up in post to get closer to the low Fps bourne was shooted.

But with 2K Red is not the great camera it is.


Hi Craig,

Not sure if I'd agree with Vico's post solution,but I certainly agree that Red has lot's of issues at 2k.It wouldn't be my first choice,and I own one.
Go with film,really nothing better.

Tom.
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#11 Mathew Rudenberg

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 09:47 PM

Southland is a Red show and it's pretty 'Bourney' - They use the Red CF cards...

Avoid shooting 2k for multiple reasons, if you're finishing 1080 shoot quad HD.
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#12 Ben Syverson

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 11:35 PM

1) Start fight scene.
2) Motion blur!
3) Someone has won, apparently?

Call me an old fart at 29, but I like to understand what's happening on-screen. Spielberg always has a great style for action. The camerawork and editing are fast but perfectly comprehensible, which actually increases the tension in my book.

The best action scenes in The Dark Knight were like that; clear but dramatic. Maybe all action directors should have to shoot with 15 perf cameras.
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#13 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 04:29 AM

The Bourne style worked in that particular series, it became a mess in the last Bond film.
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#14 Marc Roessler

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 05:50 AM

Maybe this is also due the increasing disturbing trend of framing and cutting for TV?
What always comes to mind for me is the Chinese prison camp fight scene in "Batman Begins" (otherwise a great movie!): i always had the urge to stand up and get like 20 meters further away from the screen because it simply was too much "in your face", like some Imax films framed too close.

Don't get me wrong, I love dynamic images, but it's a fine line to walk, especially when screening on the big screen, so take care and don't over-do it...

Greetings,
Marc.
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#15 John Sprung

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 02:20 PM

... i always had the urge to stand up and get like 20 meters further away from the screen because it simply was too much "in your face", like some Imax films framed too close.


Yeah -- a CU that's way too close sometimes gets an unintended laugh. To make things worse, now we're going to have to frame for everything from the big screen to cell phones. TV may be the middle ground....




-- J.S.
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