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how far does a 12k dinolight reach?


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#1 Iga Mikler

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 06:25 PM

hello.
im shooting inside a hotelroom and am wondering if a 12k dinolight would reach inside the room and do the job. i want a sun feel. im shooting in uruguay so the light here is hard. this incase of clowdy day. and when sun dissapears. my intention is to use mirrors on sunny day also the sun.
the choice i have is a 6k hmi on a kondor or to put a 12k on the roof on the opposite side.
any advise for me? any calculations i could do somewhere? how far does the 12k reach? and where does it fall of drasticly? i am attaching images of the hotel room, and the street so u can approx see how far it is to the other side.
also a link to the light.
http://www.musitelli...ini-maxi-brutes

muchos graccias!!

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Edited by Iga Mikler, 04 January 2010 - 06:29 PM.

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#2 Iga Mikler

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 06:32 PM

here is also a pic of the room. its 5x5m

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#3 Mathew Rudenberg

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:41 PM

I would definitely go for the 6k on a condor if you can afford it, especially if it's a par. That way you'll have more flexibility picking the height and angle of the light coming through the window, whereas with the rooftop you'll be somewhat more limited.

As for the Dino, I would say it would probably put out more light than a 6k Par depending on your lens choice, but it's the wrong color and depending on your diffusion you could get multiple shadows. Once you gel it to daylight it would be less light, but you could somewhat offset this by using medium or spot lenses ... I think you could make it work if you needed to, and I imagine it would be a significantly cheaper solution...
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#4 David Rakoczy

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 07:55 PM

I would definitely go for the 6k on a condor if you can afford it, especially if it's a par. That way you'll have more flexibility picking the height and angle of the light coming through the window, whereas with the rooftop you'll be somewhat more limited.



6K/ Condor. I could not agree more. Except to say with the rooftop, you will be VERY limited.
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 08:46 PM

If you put all spot globes in the 12-light Dino it may be bright enough from across the street, but it would be 3200K of course, and would be too spotty to put a gel frame in front of it (plus blue gel sort of defeats the purpose of getting more light from the spot globes.) The 6K HMI PAR on the Condor would be more controllable. The Dino would be orangey in a daylight scene, which is fine if you wanted a Storaro-esque golden look.
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#6 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 04:11 AM

Can't really imagine that dinos could look like hard sunlight realistically enough. Aside from the color temperature issue, they are multiple lights arrayed together (obviously). In my experience, if left undifused, they tend to produce multiple shadows (more or less, depending on actual globes used). I personally have never used or seen them used undifused trying to replicate hard sunlight, tho I am sure they have been used that way. If hard sunlight is what you are after, the 6k HMI / condor seems to be the way to go.
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#7 Chris Millar

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 04:43 AM

how far does the 12k reach? and where does it fall of drasticly?


Ok, I dont much about actual fixtures - certainly take the advice of those who have posted already - but it seems to me that a little reading up on say the inverse square law and the general nature of visible radiation might be of assistance here !
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#8 David Rakoczy

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 07:55 AM

If you put all spot globes in the 12-light Dino it may be bright enough from across the street, but it would be 3200K of course, and would be too spotty to put a gel frame in front of it (plus blue gel sort of defeats the purpose of getting more light from the spot globes.) The 6K HMI PAR on the Condor would be more controllable. The Dino would be orangey in a daylight scene, which is fine if you wanted a Storaro-esque golden look.



I shot an entire Feature (Durango Kids) using nothing but Tungsten Lamps... even in Daylight. We used Dinos for Daylight and 20ks for Night. You load the Dinos with Dichroics and add 1/4 CTB and you are at 5500k. However, you MUST use Heat Shield Gel.

With that set up the Dino was very close to Talent Int. and Ext. I don't think you would get much of anything from across the street in broad daylight... it could light up all of downtown at night :lol:

Dino Info here. Click the Performance Data Tab
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#9 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 01:41 PM

You load the Dinos with Dichroics and add 1/4 CTB and you are at 5500k. However, you MUST use Heat Shield Gel.


True, Dichroics are the best solution for daylight filming with tungsten lights. Problem is, glass filters can be a big pain in the ass. I need to get me some of these Cinedichros: http://www.rosco.com.../permacolor.asp
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#10 Mathew Rudenberg

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 01:55 PM

Here's a modest example of Dino's used to light a day int:

http://www.theasc.co...er/image10.html

looks like no gel correction...
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#11 David Rakoczy

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 02:02 PM

Saul, I meant Dichroic Globes (Bulbs)... not a glass filter. But they won't get you to 5500k hence the 1/4 CTB Gel (with Heat Shield).

The modest Khondji set up was most likely using with Dichroic (Daylight) Globes in those Dinos or they just waited for the sun to set and went Tungsten mode...
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#12 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 04:03 PM

This may be of some help.

Arri Photometrics
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#13 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:02 AM

Can't really imagine that dinos could look like hard sunlight realistically enough. Aside from the color temperature issue, they are multiple lights arrayed together (obviously). In my experience, if left undifused, they tend to produce multiple shadows (more or less, depending on actual globes used). I personally have never used or seen them used undifused trying to replicate hard sunlight, tho I am sure they have been used that way. If hard sunlight is what you are after, the 6k HMI / condor seems to be the way to go.


Storaro has lit plenty of daylight scenes with multi-bank tungstens, in his case Jumbos, which are similar to Dinos but use ACL globes and are DC powered. Often he lets them go warm for a sunset effect, other times he gels them to a higher color temp. Yes, they create a fringed shadow pattern depending on how many globes are on and how close the fixture is, but it still can have a daylight or sunset look:

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#14 Nico Hardy

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:37 PM

Contrary to what seem the most popular opinion here, I would go 100% for the dino.
i know that street and shot in that same hotel. the sun runs parallel to the street down bellow, so there's no direct sun for most of the day.
Multiple tungsten bulbs set further out from a set look really beautiful, to me at least.
In a way they tend to look more like real daylight than a single HMI lamp.
The multiple shadow issue is bit too technical and not a real world problem. Only by-the-book DPs looking for them would object.
I would save the condor money and get 4x Ruby 7 and get more control of the light array and focus they give.
Used with tungsten film and color balanced in post it looks great. The blue fill from natural light most probably will make it even more interesting.

enjoy Montevideo, always a pleasure to shoot there.

Cheers,
Nico
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#15 timHealy

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 12:39 PM

a few comments.

I agree with Nico about shadows. When maxi's and dino's are used from far away they become one source. There are no perceived multiple shadows.

If we are talking about sunlight then he could easily use 3200 bulbs. I find the actual color temp of the sun is closer to 32 than pure skylight which could be higher than 55. If you wanted bluer light the Dichroic bulbs mentioned by David R are a great way to go. I think they are 4800 or so. If you can find them. They may be hard to find. Someone told me they aren't making them anymore, but that would need to be checked.

A condor and 6k will be great and more flexible for lighting positions if money is not an issue. If money is an issue, than tungsten and the roof top is cheaper. Just have to get power up there.

Is there room for a condor on that street with the planters and trees in the way? Can they close off traffic? Do you have to leave a lane for emergency vehicles like we do in NYC?

If you want a really kick ass bright light try 1200 watt fire starters in the Ruby 7's. The single biggest advantage a Ruby seven has over maxi brutes and dino's is that it is focusable. sure you can pan a row of bulbs in a maxi or dino, but you can't focus all bulbs in one spot like a Ruby seven. If you have enough manpower and money to get a bunch of 24 bulbs dinos and 4/0 up there then that could be brighter than a Ruby seven. But that would probably be overkill.

David mentioned ACL's which are terrific but you can use AC or DC as long as 4 30 volt bulbs are wired in series for 120 volt AC US power. Some rental house have a wiring adapter for that purpose. Or make your own.

There may be no gel correction on the dino's in the UN set up but that picture does not show what they may have had on the windows or not.

I recommend a couple of ruby sevens on the roof too. Looks like it is perfect for that location and one can easily roll around a couple of road runners or cranks stands up there and the roof is actually higher than your set.

If money is not and issue you could do a condor and have a light or two on the roof as well.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

Best

Tim

Edited by timHealy, 09 January 2010 - 12:44 PM.

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#16 Paul Bruening

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:53 PM

Looks like building a set might be cheaper than this. Do you just need the room or will there be shots all around the hotel?
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#17 timHealy

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 04:19 PM

Jumbos, which are similar to Dinos but use ACL globes and are DC powered.


Hey David,

I never used Jumbo's. Are those a large circular looking fixtures with 12 to 16 ACL's? I think I have seen pictures of them on European shoots but have never seen them is the US. At least I don't think I have.

Tim
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#18 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 05:08 PM

Jumbos come in different configurations, like Dinos, but I don't know if there is a circular version -- that may be a Ruby.
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#19 timHealy

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:06 AM

Jumbos come in different configurations, like Dinos, but I don't know if there is a circular version -- that may be a Ruby.


No it wasn't a Ruby 7. I know them very well. I also know the guys who created it and sold it to Arri. The best place that I recall seeing the light with no name was in the documentary "Lost In La Mancha". It is definately a European light (assuming that since I have never seen it in the US). Have you seen that film? I'm sure you have. It was a big circular light on something like a crank stand. Was that a Jumbo?

Have you used them in LA? Perhaps it is an LA term for something more familiar.

Lost in La Moncha is worth watching regardless of the reason.

best

Tim
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#20 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 06:42 PM

Personally, I just don't like the look of the multi light Dino style fixture for "Hard Sunlight." It has nothing to do with being a "by the book" cinematographer. If I can see multiple shadows on the subject, the light is no good to me. Perhaps I didn't back it out as far as some have suggested, but ultimately I trust my eyes. If other DPs put them to good use, as Storaro and countless others have, then more power to them.

A local film making group I was part of was donated a 9 light Fay fixture a few years ago. The light worked fine, tremendous output, to be sure. I used it a couple of times, but only with diffusion. Always preferred to rent the lights that I needed for the shot as opposed to using the free light that I didn't want to use, simply because it generally wasn't right for the project, as far as I was concerned. ;)

Edited by Saul Rodgar, 10 January 2010 - 06:44 PM.

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