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P+S Technik Freestyle 3D Rig


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#1 thomas-english

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 05:38 PM

I made this video demonstrating the P+S Technik Freestyle 3D Mirror Rig whilst messing about with it the other day. Let me know what you think.

http://www.thomaseng...uk/archives/234
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#2 Scott Dolan

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 08:52 AM

Very interesting rig. Not sure how it would go with larger cameras though.

Both cameras moving to balance out each other when adjusting I/O is all well and good for the Operator, but how does this view stereoscopically? In the footage it appears as though the cameras are crossing over and going into neg stereo.
Have you viewed the images on a Real D system?

How difficult is it to align verticals and zoom offsets?
Do you have control of the vertical alignment on the fly? (ie: adjustable mirror)

What happens to the balance when you converge?

Very keen to see it fly with Reds and some real lenses.

Cheers
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#3 Alfeo Dixon

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 03:03 PM

Very interesting rig. Not sure how it would go with larger cameras though.

Scott,

A dream to fly with SI2K's... we had one in the booth at Tiffen/Steadicam and I was also given a very thorough overview of design and operation by Philippe Bordelais. Not to mention the same over haul on the Cine Deck w/ SI-2K's with Ari Presler from Silicon Imaging... I guess I had my own personal 3D workshop ;-)

ok... back to your questions...

Both cameras moving to balance out each other when adjusting I/O is all well and good for the Operator, but how does this view stereoscopically?

changing the I/O in the manor of the Freestyle does not affect your stereo viewing in any way... same as if it where typical or side-side.

In the footage it appears as though the cameras are crossing over and going into neg stereo.

The cameras will crossover to what you are calling negative stereo, this is designed that way by Philippe to accommodate the operators that fly goofy. Mainly for the ability to view the monitor, thats it.

Have you viewed the images on a Real D system?

Have not viewed on Real D system, that of course has no relation to acquisition nor operation.

How difficult is it to align verticals and zoom offsets?

very easy, done by sight, looks as if the mirror is a perfect 45deg from both cameras. Very well done and compact design.

Do you have control of the vertical alignment on the fly? (ie: adjustable mirror)

Yes and No. You are able to adjust the mirror along an xy angle, but not advised to move once set with the cameras your operating with. There is no rise on this rig, only a tilt for far/near alignment.

What happens to the balance when you converge?

I am pretty sure that only the top camera moves on convergence, but I could be mistaken on this point. The nodal point is just about where the gate on the camera would be, centered on the horizontal camera, this is could have a slight affect if you where pulling.

-Alfeo

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Edited by Alfeo Dixon, 20 April 2010 - 03:05 PM.

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#4 Scott Dolan

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 08:59 PM

changing the I/O in the manor of the Freestyle does not affect your stereo viewing in any way... same as if it where typical or side-side.
The cameras will crossover to what you are calling negative stereo, this is designed that way by Philippe to accommodate the operators that fly goofy. Mainly for the ability to view the monitor, thats it.
Have not viewed on Real D system, that of course has no relation to acquisition nor operation.



Have you ever viewed stereoscopic images that have crossed-over into negative stereo?
Its all well and good to run around with a rig that flys well and works from a mechanical viewpoint, but bad stereoscopic aquisition is pointless.
3D will not last if people continue to create films with eye-ripping stereo. Regardless of how hard Producers and 3DTV manufacturers push, it needs to be done well or not at all.
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#5 Alfeo Dixon

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:39 AM

Have you ever viewed stereoscopic images that have crossed-over into negative stereo?
Its all well and good to run around with a rig that flys well and works from a mechanical viewpoint, but bad stereoscopic aquisition is pointless.
3D will not last if people continue to create films with eye-ripping stereo. Regardless of how hard Producers and 3DTV manufacturers push, it needs to be done well or not at all.

Scott,

Maybe your not clear on what 'goofy' operating is, so let me take the time seeing this is not the steadicam forum where I actually thought I had posted. Goofy, comes from a surfing term (I don't surf nor really know much about surfing) of someone that puts the opposite foot forward than the 'normal' guys. So, a steadicam operator that flies goofy, will fly the rig on his right side, rather than on the left side of the body.

How this relates to the rig? In order for the [steadicam] operator to have a clear view of the steadicam monitor, the top [horizontal] camera should move towards the right (by default making it the right eye) while increasing IO in order to have visual clearance to our steadicam monitor below. If the bottom [vertical] camera is towards the right, this will obstruct the steadicams monitor and cause hardship for the operator to frame properly.

So, the goofy guys will want the top camera to move towards the left (by default making it the left eye) so that the bottom camera will not obstruct their view of the steadicam monitor.

A very simple and clear design feature thinking about the ones that are different from the rest of us. I too had questioned why Philippe would do such a thing and then he showed me exactly what I described to you.

Now, your personal attack seems a bit rude. I've personally followed 3D for a few years before the big uproar and then studied an entire week with Paul Taylor at the first Maine workshop on Stereography along with Doug Hart and many other VERY enthused people on the subject of 3D. We even had a neurophysicist that came from Sweden just because he is excited about 3D as a hobby.

I totally agree, that bad stereoscopic acquisition is pointless and that is why I am excited for Philippe's rig and just asked Chris at ZGC for a quote, because it is a good solid rig with a lot of thought into it for acquisition on dolly, hand held or steadicam and not just a flyby night rig made by someone that has never operated a camera, much less a steadicam.... Philippe is an operator!

Apology in order and accepted

-Alfeo

BTW, that is also why there should be a stereographer onset and not this post crap.

Edited by Alfeo Dixon, 27 April 2010 - 09:43 AM.

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#6 Scott Dolan

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:43 AM

Scott,

Maybe your not clear on what 'goofy' operating is, so let me take the time seeing this is not the steadicam forum where I actually thought I had posted. Goofy, comes from a surfing term (I don't surf nor really know much about surfing) of someone that puts the opposite foot forward than the 'normal' guys. So, a steadicam operator that flies goofy, will fly the rig on his right side, rather than on the left side of the body.

How this relates to the rig? In order for the [steadicam] operator to have a clear view of the steadicam monitor, the top [horizontal] camera should move towards the right (by default making it the right eye) while increasing IO in order to have visual clearance to our steadicam monitor below. If the bottom [vertical] camera is towards the right, this will obstruct the steadicams monitor and cause hardship for the operator to frame properly.

So, the goofy guys will want the top camera to move towards the left (by default making it the left eye) so that the bottom camera will not obstruct their view of the steadicam monitor.

A very simple and clear design feature thinking about the ones that are different from the rest of us. I too had questioned why Philippe would do such a thing and then he showed me exactly what I described to you.

Now, your personal attack seems a bit rude. I've personally followed 3D for a few years before the big uproar and then studied an entire week with Paul Taylor at the first Maine workshop on Stereography along with Doug Hart and many other VERY enthused people on the subject of 3D. We even had a neurophysicist that came from Sweden just because he is excited about 3D as a hobby.

I totally agree, that bad stereoscopic acquisition is pointless and that is why I am excited for Philippe's rig and just asked Chris at ZGC for a quote, because it is a good solid rig with a lot of thought into it for acquisition on dolly, hand held or steadicam and not just a flyby night rig made by someone that has never operated a camera, much less a steadicam.... Philippe is an operator!

Apology in order and accepted

-Alfeo

BTW, that is also why there should be a stereographer onset and not this post crap.


Alfeo,

I'm not sure why you are going on about the goofy thing. I never mentioned that once or questioned the logic behind it.
It made sense to me right from your original post.
I'm a bit confused by your in-depth explanation of this??

Next, my question was certainly not a personal attack. It was a fair question, and judging by your evasion I'm guessing the answer is "no".
I'm just trying to guage if you really understand what I am talking about.
If you had seen neg stereo projected on a proper system you would agree that having the cameras cross over is very bad idea.

Anyway, I'm not here for an arguement.
I will apologise for the fact that you took my inquisition the wrong way, but thats it.

This will be my final post on the topic.
Take care, and good luck.
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#7 Alfeo Dixon

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:11 PM

I'm not sure why you are going on about the goofy thing. I never mentioned that once or questioned the logic behind it.
It made sense to me right from your original post.
I'm a bit confused by your in-depth explanation of this??

simply explaining the rig and WHY the rig will allow the IO to cross over. Its was NOT made for operating in a negative IO.

Next, my question was certainly not a personal attack. It was a fair question, and judging by your evasion I'm guessing the answer is "no".

Yes. That was one of the many things we accomplished in Maine... try it all and SEE why it works and why it doesn't work. Proper projection or manufactures standards, I don't think so. But we did shoot footage based on the projected screen size set up in the 'Production Barn.' We tried it all.

I'm just trying to guage if you really understand what I am talking about.
If you had seen neg stereo projected on a proper system you would agree that having the cameras cross over is very bad idea.

Of course I understood this and DO agree, but you still missed the point of the rig allowing for the top camera to be left eye or right eye by asking me about negative IO. Don't think in terms of neg or positive IO with this rig... it's more of a left or right eye [top camera] configuration that is swappable for a goofy operator.

Anyway, I'm not here for an arguement.
I will apologise for the fact that you took my inquisition the wrong way, but thats it.

no problem
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#8 thomas-english

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 05:35 PM

Mr. Dolan,

What Alfeo said. I'm not too sure why you are hung up on this negative IO nonsense. Just because the rig is capable of it does that mean that you sir are going to turn up and do it? Your also capable of driving a car straight into a brick wall as well. You can stand on your head and drink vodka. There are all sorts of things that are possible that don't merit long forum discussions because they are obviously bad ideas. Although I strongly do recommend we all drink a little vodka.

As Alfeo said. On Steadicam side swaps, handheld in tight spots etc etc we might want to swap the eyes over. A qualified stereoscoper will then take it upon himself to use negative IO and swap the eyes over. For the record Alfeo has worked on quite a few 3D jobs.

The reason I demonstrated the full IO pull is for effect. To demonstrate.

Its fine with larger cameras. I have 2 REDs in there on a current feature. The motors pull both cameras fine apparently. Chris Parks from Vision3 is pulling IO and convergence. It is tricky to set the rolls and calibrations but Chris Parks and Matt Smith are doing a sterling job in difficult circumstances.
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#9 thomas-english

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 05:39 PM

Do you have control of the vertical alignment on the fly? (ie: adjustable mirror)


Are you insane? You want motorised vertical alignment? How much vodka have you been drinking?

I would like to make it clear I am completely unqualified in any way as any kind of Stereoptician.
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#10 Scott Dolan

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 07:28 AM

Are you insane? You want motorised vertical alignment? How much vodka have you been drinking?

I would like to make it clear I am completely unqualified in any way as any kind of Stereoptician.



Thomas, good to hear from you.
Vodka, no. Scotch, maybe ;)

To answer your question... The ability to adjust vertical alignment on the fly is actually very useful.
If you've worked with 3D rigs you will know that from time to time you get vertical shift during takes.
For example during 90 degree tilt downs or if the camera takes a bump. It is much better to be able to correct this on the fly and continue with the shot. Especially when shooting multi-cameras.
Call me crazy, but flexibility and readiness to adapt to any situation is a huge bonus.

As for the negative IO business... you have answered my initial question perfectly, thank you.
Indeed swapping the eyes over in shot would not be possible, and this was what perplexed me.
But I can certainly see how having the capability to swap sides for a particular shot would be advantageous.

Cheers & take care :D
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#11 Jeremy M Lundborg

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 04:27 PM

Scott,

A dream to fly with SI2K's... we had one in the booth at Tiffen/Steadicam and I was also given a very thorough overview of design and operation by Philippe Bordelais. Not to mention the same over haul on the Cine Deck w/ SI-2K's with Ari Presler from Silicon Imaging... I guess I had my own personal 3D workshop ;-)

ok... back to your questions...
changing the I/O in the manor of the Freestyle does not affect your stereo viewing in any way... same as if it where typical or side-side.
The cameras will crossover to what you are calling negative stereo, this is designed that way by Philippe to accommodate the operators that fly goofy. Mainly for the ability to view the monitor, thats it.
Have not viewed on Real D system, that of course has no relation to acquisition nor operation.
very easy, done by sight, looks as if the mirror is a perfect 45deg from both cameras. Very well done and compact design.
Yes and No. You are able to adjust the mirror along an xy angle, but not advised to move once set with the cameras your operating with. There is no rise on this rig, only a tilt for far/near alignment.
I am pretty sure that only the top camera moves on convergence, but I could be mistaken on this point. The nodal point is just about where the gate on the camera would be, centered on the horizontal camera, this is could have a slight affect if you where pulling.

-Alfeo



Alfeo,

Looking at the picture attached to your post, I see you are wearing anaglyph glasses. Does one actually wear these while operating? Does it cause any confusion of where you stand as you operate? Is this common practice with most stereo rigs?
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#12 Alfeo Dixon

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:22 AM

Alfeo,

Looking at the picture attached to your post, I see you are wearing anaglyph glasses. Does one actually wear these while operating? Does it cause any confusion of where you stand as you operate? Is this common practice with most stereo rigs?

sorry Jeremy... hadn't been on the boards for a while.... no, this is not a common practice... the photo was during NAB and I had a friend coming bring a bunch of anaglyph glasses from a screening of a project I had shot to the Tiffen/Steadicam booth which I was helping show the rigs. Normal is to look at a single eye or and overlay of both eyes which takes a bit to get use to as far as your bg.
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