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Processing 7219 500T as black and white


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#1 Trevor Jahner

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 01:54 PM

Hi

Just wanted to know if anyone has any experience hand processing 7219 as black and white (or extremely desaturated color, maybe skip bleach?). I'm more or less lost but my first instinct is to cross process in black and white chemicals that are heated up to deal with the more robust color emulsion or develop longer in the b&w chemicals. I'm not sure how the developer will work though, especially considering color has three layers in the emulsion.

I'm also wondering if this is even worth it because I want to shoot black and white but want a low light stock. If I had to overexpose in shooting or push the stock in processing it wouldn't really give me more options than just using TRI-X. My goal is to have the fastest stock I can but still have the image in black and white or close.

Thanks!
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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 01:59 PM

I don't think you'll find too many labs which are too keen to run color in b/w developer....
Simplest solution, and used often, would be to shoot color and pull the sat in the TC or DI. If you're after the particular grain structure of b/w film, then perhaps the best course of action would be shoot a faster stock and push it a stop, or as you mention doing a bleach bypass or the like to keep the grain very visible and then pull sat later on.
The benefit to this whole thing, instead of some strange processing which is hard to pull off and hard to keep consistent is that you get a good amount of control over the neg as well as the separate color channels of the neg if you're coming off of color film.
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#3 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 05:08 PM

Happy to process it.... it come out as clear leader.

-Rob-
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#4 Trevor Jahner

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 05:43 PM

yeah I was actually going to process it myself, so I would avoid the whole lab problem thing. In case I wasn't clear, I'm open to suggestions as to how to do this, I was just giving the only way I could think of to do this.

Thanks again!
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#5 Dominic Case

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:07 PM

Happy to process it.... it come out as clear leader.

No - it's the other way round Rob (I know you really know that!).

Black and white neg through the ECN2 colour process would be a serious worry - there would be no image as the process is designed to remove all silver leaving a colour dye image (and b/w neg has no dyes). Worse, there is a good possibility that the hot developer would soften the emulsion enough for it to fall off into the dev tank.

But . . . .

Colour neg through a black and white process will give a black and white image - of sorts. You won't get a lab to do it because their black and white processor (if they have one still) won't be able to cope with the remjet backing - quite apart from the uncertainty about time and temperature for the developer. But - given the same messy business of having to remove the insoluble remjet cleanly, and the same unknown time and temperature (or even what is the best b/w developer solution), it could be done at home in a large spiral tank.

No need to worry about the three emulsion layers (in fact there are twice as many). They all rely on forming a silver image as part of the process, so you'll simply get a pnchromatic b/w negative image.

But there's no need to go to this trouble. Shoot colour neg, process it normally, and desaturate the colour in telecine or in DI, as Adrian suggests.
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#6 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:56 PM

No - it's the other way round Rob (I know you really know that!).



Yeah and we just made clear leader the other day too... long day making the film....

-Rob-
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#7 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:59 PM

Colour neg through a black and white process will give a black and white image - of sorts. You won't get a lab to do it because their black and white processor (if they have one still) won't be able to cope with the remjet backing -
But there's no need to go to this trouble. Shoot colour neg, process it normally, and desaturate the colour in telecine or in DI, as Adrian suggests.



Hey! we have two B&W Processors for three B&W Processes.... Reversal Negative and Print... If faster is what you are after then a run of 7219 in the Reversal or B&W Neg bath is not what you want! If you want a sort of image that looks like sludge then ok... Dominic is right as always...

-Rob-
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#8 K Borowski

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:04 AM

I tried doing a test with a camera movement (to make sure there were no light-leaks/streaking issues) with a 5-foot roll of C-41 still film (no rem-jet, but similar to ECN-2) a year ago, and I thought I'd save time and money by just processing it in a trough of old B&W developer I had lying around.

I processed the standard time, I think 7 minutes for B&W film and cam out with. . . nothing blank film.


So I'm afraid that you'll have to do something comparable with ECN-2, maybe the equivalent of a 2-stop push to get an image to show up in B&W.



Just shoot real B&W stock ('31 or the Fuji equivalent) or ECN-2 and digitally desaturate. Also, doesn't Kodak still make B&W intermediate stock if you want to do it optically?
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#9 Trevor Jahner

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:39 PM

This clarifies a lot! Thanks all for the advice!
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