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Cine Kodak K100 16mm - need help!


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#1 James Beckerlegge

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:37 PM

Hello,
I am new to this discussion group, and I am new to using 16mm film and cameras.
I have my own business in video production and thought it time to try out some 16mm film as a hobbie.

I recently bought a Cine Kodak K100 16mm single lens on ebay.
I received the camera in the post and eagerly opened it to have a play with it.

(Just to let you know, I don't have any film or a take-up spool yet, not sure which film to buy either, so some help with that would be very much appreciated).

I fully wound the spring, and hit the trigger.
Instead of the motor coming to life and continuously clicking away, what happend was that it only clicked once, and the take-up spindle advanced 1 click, as if it is in single exposure mode.
I then released the trigger, pulled the trigger again, and again, 1 frame, 1 exposure etc.

I have obviously twiddled all knobs etc on the camera, set the frames per second dial at all different positions, but still it still only clicks 1 frame at a time.

I read somewhere that these cameras can do single exposures for animation or time-lapse, have I got my camera stuck in single exposure mode, and can't for the life of me work out how? Or does the camera need to be fitted with film and spools before it works properly? Or have I bought a duff camera of someone on ebay that sells himself as having over 100 years in the camera and photographic business?

Any help with this would be much appreciated.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts

Kind regards

James

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#2 Keneu Luca

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 11:22 PM

http://www.tradebit....mm-movie-camera
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#3 James Beckerlegge

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 11:36 PM

Thanks for the link.
I have actually already downloaded the user manual and read through it.

But unfortunately it says nothing about the problem that I am having, (unless I'm missing the obvious).

Thanks again

James
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#4 Ian Cooper

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 03:33 AM

Thanks for the link.
I have actually already downloaded the user manual and read through it.

But unfortunately it says nothing about the problem that I am having, (unless I'm missing the obvious).

Thanks again

James


Hi James,

I doubt I can be too much practical help with the camera, seeing as I've never seen or used a K100, but from looking at the manual you need to push the 'exposure lever' in an upwards direction to cause the single-frame exposure, or move it in a downwards direction for normal running.

Is your camera doing single-frames when you move the lever in both directions?
...or does it do single-frames when you move it up, and nothing when you move it down?


Hopefully somebody else might have first-hand knowledge, but if it doesn't spring into life then it might be worth carefully opening it up a bit. You haven't got much to loose seeing as the cost for a repair-tech to take a look is probably more than it'd cost to just get another camera. The photos in the manual seem to suggest the back plate to the film chamber is just held in with screws in a similar manner to a 'K3'. Once you can see the mechanism itself, hopefully the reason for it not moving becomes obvious.


Moving on to the film itself, a certain amount might depend where in the world you are. Personally I'd stick to negative, as it's more forgiving of exposure errors than reversal film. But if you've also got a projector then reversal has a clear advantage as you don't need to pay for telecine (but 100D reversal film isn't available on 100ft spools in every country).

Unless you already have the necessary colour correction filter for the lens to shoot tungsten balanced film under daylight conditions, I'd be inclined to start off with daylight balanced film. This means you have a choice of Kodak 7201 (50D), Fuji 8622 (F-64D), Kodak 7205 (250D), Fuji 8663 (250D), or Fuji 8692 (500D). If your weather is generally bright and sunny then the 50D/64D would be your best bet, if your weather is dull and overcast then using 250D will allow you to get some film through the camera without having to wait for the brighter weather!

One final thought, it might be worth finding out the minimum order quantities your local labs will accept. Here in the UK the minimum is basically 400ft (or the financial equivalent of 400ft). When I came to test my first 16mm camera I found a smaller 'artists' lab that would process and telecine B&W film 100ft at a time. Needless to say my first tests were done on 100ft of B&W!!
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#5 James Beckerlegge

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 04:00 AM

Hi Ian,
Thank you so much for taking the time to write to me, I am extremely grateful.

I cannot believe how stupid I am.

I literally played around with the camera last night for about 2 hours trying absolutely everything, apart however, from pushing the lever down.

I feel very silly.

In my defense, (if there is one) the lever did need to be jiggled slightly the first time to get it to move downwards.

Thank you also for all the information on the different types of film, I shall print it off and keep it with the camera for reference when deciding on which film to buy.

Thanks again for taking the time to write, it really is very much appreciated.

James
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#6 Ian Cooper

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 04:58 AM

Great news that it's working properly afterall. :)

For your first roll of film I'd be inclined to buy fresh stock from Kodak/Fuji, that way if there are any problems you aren't left wondering if the film had been x-rayed/toasted/fogged/aged before it came to you.

If you need to expose 400ft before being able to send it for processing, then make sure at least 100ft is fresh - the other 300ft can be recans/short ends or anything else you've found cheap - just make a note of which roll was the 'new' stock so you aren't then left wondering if there are differences in the processed film.
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#7 Will Montgomery

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 04:47 PM

You've got a wonderful camera.

Great tool to learn on. You may find it useful for weddings and other productions. You'll get good a judging distances for focus.
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#8 Evan Ferrario

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 07:43 PM

I have a K-100 single, glad you figured out the button yourself. I've had really good registration from this camera and also they are simple to convert to super-16mm if you want widescreen.

another unique thing about this camera is how close you can get the lens back to the film. I bought a 4.8mm lens which stuck out about 1/2 and inch past the c-mount. On any other camera, this lens will hit the shutter or other part, only the k-100 has the clearance for these type of lens.
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#9 James Beckerlegge

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 12:21 PM

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all your great friendly input.
Hi Evan, you have intrigued me by telling me that the camera can be converted to super-16mm for widescreen.
How is this done, and is it a job I can undertake myself?

I am very quickly falling in love with this camera.
I am now really happy with my purchase.

I have just bought a Som Berthiot 17-85/2 Pan Cinor-REX 16mm Movie zoom (reflex) for it too.
I haven't even bought any film for it yet.

I'm hoping that it all fits together and works when I receive the lens in the mail.
I shall post a picture of the camera here when I get things sorted.

I may of mentioned in a previous post that I have my own video production company, but in all the years of filming and editing, I have never worked with actual film, so I am really looking forward to the results, see how different it really is to video.
Hopefully with the new lens, I can get some really professional shots with depth of field.

Thanks again guys for all the help.
I feel like I'm joining a club.

Kind regards

James
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#10 Ian Cooper

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 02:07 PM

...you have intrigued me by telling me that the camera can be converted to super-16mm for widescreen.
How is this done, and is it a job I can undertake myself?...


If you value your camera, no, it isn't something you can do yourself.

The camera gate needs to be enlarged by 2.26mm on the side furthest away from the pulldown claw. The lens mount then also needs to be recentred by moving it over by 2.26mm.

In theory it sounds fairly simple, but in practice if you want your camera to work well afterwards it will take more than a couple of swipes with a file.
You're much better/safer sending the camera to a proper movie camera engineer to do the conversion.

In the mean time, just enjoy the R16 frame size. If you find yourself using and enjoying the camera then it might be worth investigating the cost of converting it. You may well need to invest in new lenses to cover the larger frame size though - something else to consider.
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#11 Will Montgomery

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 05:09 PM

You're much better/safer sending the camera to a proper movie camera engineer to do the conversion.

And it will cost about $150-$200 probably.

If interested Bernie at Super16Inc.com is a great choice. Dual in NY would probably do a fine job too. Plenty of techs out there, just hard to find them.
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#12 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 06:36 PM

I love this camera. So solid and a good long wind. A great value. You know James I remember fumbling with mine for about 20 minutes before I figured out how to get it to go.
I brought it to a Cubs, Sox game and the youngsters (20 somethings) wanted to take pictures of it with their cell phones. The 3 lenses on the turret do look pretty cool.

Have fun!
Tom
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#13 James Beckerlegge

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 11:17 AM

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the input, it's great to hear from you all.

Well I went out and bought a reflex zoom lens for my K-100.

I am very happy with it, and I can't wait to see what sort of pictures I can get with it.

But now I seem to have another problem, which I will see if any of you can help me out.

Because it is a reflex lens, it has the zoom lever on the bottom, and a viewfinder coming out of the side.
So that the lens should screw tight to the front of the camera, with the zoom lever at the bottom, and the square in the viewfinder level.

But unfortunately, the lens screws tight about a quarter turn too soon, meaning that the zoom lever isn't quite pointing down, or the viewfinder level.

So what I have done is unscrew the lens back 3 quarters of a turn so everything lines up.
I have put in a very thin washer/disc between the lens and camera so that the lens is tightly screwed against that.

My question is..... does having the lens unscrewed by maybe 1 or 2mm effect how the image gets put on to the film, will the added distance (1mm) mean that the picture will be out of focus?

The reason I ask this question, where the simple answer would be "try it and see" is that the way telecine works in this city, they have a minimum length of film requirement of half an hour.
Therefore, I don't want to shoot half an hour and find that it is all blurred.

If anyone can answer this rather unusual question, I'd be glad to hear your thoughts.

Kind regards

James

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#14 Ian Cooper

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 11:42 AM

...So what I have done is unscrew the lens back 3 quarters of a turn so everything lines up.
I have put in a very thin washer/disc between the lens and camera so that the lens is tightly screwed against that.

My question is..... does having the lens unscrewed by maybe 1 or 2mm effect how the image gets put on to the film, will the added distance (1mm) mean that the picture will be out of focus?...



What you've done is alter the flange-focal-distance. The lens will now no longer be able to focus at infinity, and all the distance markings on the lens will be inaccurate.

Now on a normal camera where the viewfinder is focussing on a ground glass inside the camera, you could continue to focus accurately using the v'finder, seeing as that is showing the same as the film (ignoring the fact that the lens still won't focus at infinity). On your reflex lens the optical path of the viewfinder is independant of the camera, so I'd tend to assume by not seating the lens properly it won't be possible for you to focus properly at all - the distance markings on the lens are now off, whilst the viewfinder is no longer representative of what's being projected onto the film.

I believe it is possible to adjust the angle of the viewfinder on some reflex lenses, but I don't know about your particular example. You might find it needs a trip to a camera/lens engineer to adjust it.
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#15 Marc Alucard

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 12:52 PM

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#16 James Beckerlegge

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 11:41 PM

Thanks guys for your help,
It looks like this is a bigger issue than I had thought it would be.

Thanks Marc for the link.

I shall take a look at the lens tonight to see if it is possible to physically move the thread of the C-mount independently to lens body.

Fingers crossed.

Thanks again

James
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#17 Kristin Riser

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 12:28 PM

I just got a K-100 and it was working great (well, mechanically, I haven't developed any film yet)...I was playing around with it and now it seems to have frozen. I had somehow switched from regular to single frame advance and tried to get it back.....now it will not do anything....

help???
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#18 Kristin Riser

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:08 PM

I have just downloaded and read the manual. It isn't helping. I fear I have over-wound the camera. I am a total 'newbie' and need advice. Have I just broken my new (obviously used) K-100??

ouch.
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#19 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 09:06 PM

I have just downloaded and read the manual. It isn't helping. I fear I have over-wound the camera. I am a total 'newbie' and need advice. Have I just broken my new (obviously used) K-100??

ouch.


Running a camera without film can cause various damage because of over speeding. These units are now over 40 years old and when they turn up it is common that they have not been cleaned or lubricated since new. if the winding key has some resistance or does not wind at all, the spring is probably intact. The mechanism may be "gummed up" form dead grease.

one of the sad things is that the cost to have the camera serviced is often more than the price it sells for on the popular auction site, however it is unlikly that any unit you buy will run for long without checking it out.

(I have a B&H 240 sitting beside my computer that I need to find someone to clean and lube for me. It shot a great test roll but stopped dead at the end of the day, and a bit of playing with the sprockets caused it to start running, but I don't want to try anything else until I get brave enough to lubricate it, or I find someone to check it out)
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#20 James Beckerlegge

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 09:42 AM

Hi Guys,

Just an update on the old camera situation.

With a bit of twisting and playing around, the lens now twists perfectly into position, without the need for washers.

Now I just need something to film.

Hi Kristian,

Thanks for your private message asking for advice on the problem you are having above.
I hope you don't mind, I have copy and pasted the answer from my reply message to you, below.......

The problem that I was having with my camera, was that I had not worked out that you twist the little lever up for single frame advance, and twist it down to get the camera to advance in movie mode.

I had simply overlooked the fact that the lever moves in 2 directions.

Your problem sounds a bit more serious.

If I were you, I wouldn't take your camera apart just yet.
I would fiddle around with the little knobs and levers, and try to find a way to get the mechanism to advance.
Maybe if you wound it tight, try and release some of the wind by doing single frame advances.

I have heard that you can over-wind these cameras.
But from what I can see of my camera, it's pretty robust.
I've heard that these cameras run and run, so I think that you probably would know for sure if you over-wound it, you would know at the time, because you would think "I'm breaking this camera".

Try changing the frame rate, and pushing the lever.

Take the side off the camera and have a look in the film compartment.
See if there is something blocking the mechanism.

I think that taking the camera apart should be your last resort.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Kind regards

James
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