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400ft rolls to 100ft spools and other questions...


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#1 Mario Cisneros

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 03:07 PM

Hi, This is the first time I will be using a film camera :rolleyes: ,,, just bought a k-3 with all accessories from eBay for a decent deal. It comes with 2 400ft rolls, a Canon fit RMC Tokina f=80~200mm/f4.5 lens and a vintage tripod, all this for $250.
The rolls are:
400’ refrigerated Kodak Vision 200T Color Negative Film
400’ refrigerated Eastman 7291 Color Negative Film
I understand this two films are discontinued products.. so will I be able to send it to a lab for processing? does anybody know if these rolls are single or double perforated? And the most important, How do I transfer the 400ft rolls into 100ft spools?

Please, any help would be greatly appreciated

Regards,
Mario
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#2 Ian Cooper

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 02:17 AM

Hi, This is the first time I will be using a film camera :rolleyes: ,,, just bought a k-3 with all accessories from eBay for a decent deal. It comes with 2 400ft rolls, a Canon fit RMC Tokina f=80~200mm/f4.5 lens and a vintage tripod, all this for $250.
The rolls are:
400’ refrigerated Kodak Vision 200T Color Negative Film
400’ refrigerated Eastman 7291 Color Negative Film
I understand this two films are discontinued products.. so will I be able to send it to a lab for processing? does anybody know if these rolls are single or double perforated? And the most important, How do I transfer the 400ft rolls into 100ft spools?

Please, any help would be greatly appreciated

Regards,
Mario


Well Kodak 7291 was available from 1983 - 1989 and was originally rated as 100asa tungsten balanced. At 21 years old and unknown storage, who knows what condition it might be in by now. Easiest thing is to shoot some to test it - but don't hold your hopes too high. Film technology has moved on a bit since 1983 even if it was still 'fresh'. Kodak 7274, Vision200T was available from 1997 - 2005, so will still be at least 5 or 6 years old.

Both can still be processed, but it might be worth rating them at a slightly slower speed now. Look on the film can label for either "1R" or "2R". That's what will tell you if it's single or double perf. (2R = double)


As for transferring from 400ft cores to 100ft spools. You'll need three things.

1) Some empty 100ft spools (can find on ebay, beg from a lab, or else buy new)
2) A darkroom (only needs to be a room with no light, nothing too fancy)
3) Ideally a set of rewinds & a split reel, but if you're fairly good at knocking things together yourself you can make do with alternatives.

In essence you need a spindle for the 400ft core to spin on, a spindle for the 100ft spool to spin on, and some way of supporting the core of film so it doesn't fall apart! I made myself a horizontal arrangement with two pins and a circular plate to rest the 400ft core of film on.

The only thing to remember is that (unless it's double perf) you have to double wind the film: Wind it off the 400ft core onto a spool, then wind if off the spool onto a second spool. If you don't do this you'll find the perfs are the wrong side and it won't feed through the camera properly.


Personally I'd shoot at least one 100ft spool of brand new fresh film if it's the first time you used this camera. If you only use the old stuff and find the results are showing problems, then depending what it is that's wrong you might be left wondering if the problem lies with the camera, or with the old film?


Have fun with it!
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#3 John Sprung

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 01:56 PM

If you're going to cut the negative, you should double wind. Otherwise, the key numbers will run in the wrong direction and drive the neg cutter nuts.




-- J.S.
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#4 Dominic Case

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:31 PM

does anybody know if these rolls are single or double perforated?

IIRC, somewhere on the can label (should be just after the stock number (e.g. 7291) you should find the designation 1R or 2R: 1R for single perf, 2R for double perf. These stocks could have been made in either configuration.

Of course, if you have a darkroom or change bg, you can open the can and find out.

If no darkroom, you'll need to beg a favour from your lab. Sometimes they wll break the roll down onto 100ftspools for you (rather than let you loose in their darkroom!). Some labs might charge for this - smaller ones might not.

If you are planning to commit a lot of time (yours or other people's) or money into what you shoot on these rolls, then a dip test (aka clip test) would be a good insurance. The lab will process a couple of feet of unexposed stock to check its condition, fog level etc. Again, check on charges.

If you are just planning to play around to get the feel of shooting film, don't count on good or typical "film look" results. Stock that is so old will almost certainly be very grainy, and give you a dull smoky image.
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#5 Mario Cisneros

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 09:50 PM

Thank you very much for all your great responses. This is definitely one of the best forums to learn and expand your knowledge!

Wow, 21 years old! that's really interesting. I guess I'm going to have a little fan with these rolls...
I will definitely buy fresh stock to test the camera first, They sell tri-x and plus-x B/W for $20 each at B&H, it's the cheapest I've found so far... After that I'll experiment with those 400ft rolls. I'm actually pretty excited about the grainy image look ;) .
Ian, I'm very curious about your horizontal arrangement. I have access to a woodshop and would be interesting to build a simple one. If you have a chance to upload a couple of pictures it would be great!

Well, I'm not planning to commit too much money on my projects right now. It is more of an experimental stage for me. But once I get enough knowledge on film shooting, I will start with my real projects, that is composing short films about architectural spaces. (a good wide angle lens would be great or perhaps a fish eye?)

Best,
Mario
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#6 Ian Cooper

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 01:59 AM

...I will definitely buy fresh stock to test the camera first, They sell tri-x and plus-x B/W for $20 each at B&H, it's the cheapest I've found so far... After that I'll experiment with those 400ft rolls...


It might be worth speaking to the lab you intend to use first. Here in the UK all the labs have a minimum order quantity, or else a minimum order charge that's equivalent to, about 400ft. It'd be no good having 100ft of fresh BW and 300ft of colour, you'd need 400ft of the same type of film. For that reason speak to the lab(s) to find out what they can process, how much they'll charge, and their minimum orders. I've generally found all the ones I've contacted quite helpful and friendly.




Ian, I'm very curious about your horizontal arrangement. I have access to a woodshop and would be interesting to build a simple one. If you have a chance to upload a couple of pictures it would be great!


I'll what I can do later on...


...a good wide angle lens would be great or perhaps a fish eye?


Wide angles are a bit of the K3's achilles heel really. If you have the bayonet version then it's possible to get the MIR-11 12.5mm Wide angle lens, originally designed for the K1. They crop up fairly frequently on ebay.

Personally I don't really consider 12.5mm as much of a wide angle, the angle-of-view is about equivalent to a 'standard' lens on a stills camera. What I'm used to as "wide angle" from stills photography would be similar to a 5 or 6mm lens for a 16mm camera. I understand from Olex's comments that there may be a few other Russian lens options for the bayonet K3, but those don't seem to appear on EBay very often at all.

If you have the M42 screw mount version of the K3 then for wide angle lenses you're pretty much limited to just the Peleng 8mm 'fisheye'. Although designed as a 'fisheye' lens, it only really gives this effect on a 35mm stills camera (for which it is designed). The reduced area of the 16mm frame just gives a bit of a distorted wide-angle look. For most stuff the distortion might not be too visible, but architectural stuff usually calls for very undistorted lenses.

Either way, if I were you I'd have a play with the standard zoom to begin with.
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#7 Olex Kalynychenko

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 06:21 AM

I understand from Olex's comments that there may be a few other Russian lens options for the bayonet K3, but those don't seem to appear on EBay very often at all.

K3 with bayonet can use of prime lenses of russian 16SP camera.
This is 10 mm, 15 mm, 25mm, 50 mm, 75 mm.
But, this rare lenses.

We can order of upgrade a professonal zoom lens from Kinor-16 camera to K-3 bayonet mount .
This is 16 OPF-12-1 zoom lens 10-100 mm and 7.5-75 mm with 0.75 front attachment.
OPF-12 zoom lens can be a very good choose.

But, from other side, the all users of K-3 cameras have standard needs:
1. wide angle lenses ,
2. 400 ft film rolls,
3. electrical motor drive,
4. crystal sync speed control of electrical motor drive.

That's why, i recommed of all users, if you wish more from standard edition of K-3 camera, the better to choose of K-3 on Kinor-16 SX-2M camera with more high stability of image, prime lenses from 6 mm, 7.5-75 mm 10-100, 12-120 mm zoom lenses, electical motor, 400 ft film magazines.
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#8 Mario Cisneros

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 12:22 PM

Thanks Ian and Olex for your responses...
My K-3 (which is still on its way here) is the M42 version, so it seems that my only choice is the 8mm Peleng.
There are also those wide angle adapters that you put where the filter goes on the zoom lens... well, that would be a new topic I guess. Any way I'll play with the meteor zoom first.

Mario
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#9 Will Montgomery

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:46 AM

I have a 8mm Peleng for my K3. On a 35mm still camera it's a fairly extreme fisheye lens so you see quite a bit of distortion even on the 16mm K3. For special use it's great.

You didn't mention if it had been converted to Super 16... something worth doing since it's so affordable on that camera.

There's a 16mm Kiev lens I think available in m42 mount in the $250 range that is great because it covers the entire S16 range and it's noticeably sharper than the Peleng.

Also, keep on the look out for a 35mm or even 50mm m42 Pentax Super Takumar lens. Obviously those are almost telephoto on a 16mm camera, but they are amazingly sharp and if you have time to setup a shot with a tripod they can really show off the format.
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#10 Mario Cisneros

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:21 PM

The camera is just regular 16mm. Yes I've been thinking about converting it. Although, for now I will just project the film and telecine it myself, so unless I widen the projector's gate, I wouldn't be able to see the entire frame. Another possibility would be Ultra 16mm conversion, it is cheaper and no need to recenter the lens, the problem is that the projector would scratch the image area of the film,,, am I correct?

You mean the Zenitar-M 16mm f/2.8 ? It seems to be a nice lens, better than the Peleng, but not as wide. Do you have any footage samples ?? It would be nice to see how the Peleng performs on the K-3. I've been trying to find some videos about it on YouTube and Vimeo without any luck =(
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