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Arri Std mount Schneider Cinegons/Cine Xenons on LTR/XTR


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#1 Marc Roessler

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 11:39 AM

Hi,

does anyone know if there's any way of using the named lenses (Schneider Cinegon, Cine Xenon) in Arri standard mount with an LTR/XTR?

Tried with a Arri std to PL adapter... it seems the 50mm will fit, but the 10 mm, 16 mm and 25 mm won't. It's not possible to fully insert the lenses, it seems they either hit the two plastic parts at the sides (light meter?) or the front part of the ground glass. Quite a pity, because those are very nice lenses with a distinct look.
Any idea how to make it work?

Thanks,
Marc
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#2 Tim Carroll

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 12:58 PM

Hey Marc,

That's a common problem with those lenses. They were designed to be used with the Arriflex 16S, 16S/B and 16M cameras which have lots of clearance between the lens mount and the mirror/ground glass. I have heard they will also fit the Arriflex 16BL, though I have not tried this myself. I know they do not fit the Arriflex 16SR or 16SRII cameras.

I've never found a 10 mm Schneider that was sharp enough for my tastes, but the 16 mm and 25 mm can make nice images if stopped down between 2.8 and 5.6. Though I am not sure they will cover the full Super 16 frame.

If your Aaton has the PL mount (which I am assuming it does since you tried an Arri std to PL adapter), then you might want to look into finding the Cooke Kinetal lenses. Except for the 9 mm, all the rest (when linked to a Les Bosher Arri Std (Cooke) to PL Mount Adapter) fit nicely into the LTR/XTR cameras and cover the full Super 16 frame. I am referring to the 12.5 mm, the 17.5 mm, the 25 mm, the 37.5 mm, the 50 mm, and the 75 mm.

Had a set of them for years, and a PL mount XTR, and they worked great together.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Best,
-Tim
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#3 Marc Roessler

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 04:56 PM

Hey Tim,

the Schneider 10 mm and 16 mm works on the 16BL, tried this myself. Can't speak for the others but according to http://cinematechnic.../arri_16bl.html most (all?) of the other Schneiders work as well. (Terrible camera (the BL), though).

Do you know if the Schneiders fit the SR3?

I quite liked the 10 mm, although it seemed to me that it showed quite some brightness falloff towards the corners when shot wide open. Concerning sharpness, they all aren't that sharp...? But I guess that just part of their personality. I've been using them on my little 16S.

The Schneiders seem to cover S16 nicely, easily visible on the Aaton where you can see a large portion of the image circle even outside the frame. Can't speak on how much the falloff there is in the corners, though... not easily visible on the ground glass.

I've been thinking about the Cooke Kinetals, but they are offered at insane prices and are mostly sold in the US, which is a bit risky for me (located in Germany, so I can't check quality beforehand and customs can be a hassle...). You can buy a used Schneider for about 200 to 250 EUR... the Cookes seem roughly double of that! Is the quality (image or mechanical) really that much better? Also they will need to rotate in their mount for focusing, so it will be harder to get a suitable mount converter? Unfortunately I never had a chance to use any of them personally so far...

In case anyone has some a set of good quality Kinetals for sale (or for trade for the Schneiders) I'd be interested...

Greetings,
Marc
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#4 Marc Roessler

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 05:14 PM

Tim, I just browsed the site a bit, stumbled across this:
http://www.cinematog...showtopic=30872
There you stated that the Kinetals reach into the camera pretty deep, which is confusing me a bit. So they are better than the Schneiders... but which lenses would be less critical than the Kinetals then?
Just to make sure I get all of this right ;)

Thanks,
Marc

Edited by Marc Roessler, 18 April 2010 - 05:15 PM.

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#5 Tim Carroll

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 08:06 PM

Marc,

The issue with the Kinetals is that they go pretty deep into the body of the camera, too deep to be used with the Arriflex 16SR, 16SRII, 16SR3 or 16BL. On any of those cameras the back elements of the Kinetals will hit the mirror. Because of the different way the Aaton's are designed, the lenses clear the mirror. I've used the Kinetals on an Aaton LTR and an Aaton XTR with no issues.

The Schneiders are a bit different. They don't go as deep into the body of the camera, but they go wider where they do go deep, and that extra width hits on other parts of the Arriflex 16SR, 16SRII, 16SR3; and from your experience, the Aaton LTR/XTR.

The best thing to do with any of these old lenses is to try them out for yourself on the camera you want them to be used with. There are at least two different versions of the Schneiders that I have seen personally, one type was like the ones you described, and they hit on the 16SR and 16SRII, and another type (later serial numbers) that didn't hit on the 16SR and 16SRII(and maybe would work on the Aatons, I don't know).

And I have seen a couple of different versions of the Kinetals. The version I had worked fine on the Aatons, possibly the other version would not. Again, I wouldn't know unless I had a chance to test the individual lenses with the individual camera.

Best,
-Tim
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#6 Hal Smith

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 09:17 PM

Tim,

Would you please post a picture of your Les Bosher Arri Std (Cooke) to PL adapter? I've got a PL adapter I bought off eBay that works with the Cookes and I'm curious who made it. It's got two rectangular release buttons on the periphery of the adapter's barrel. It also takes bayonet lenses.
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#7 Tim Carroll

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 07:11 AM

Tim,

Would you please post a picture of your Les Bosher Arri Std (Cooke) to PL adapter? I've got a PL adapter I bought off eBay that works with the Cookes and I'm curious who made it. It's got two rectangular release buttons on the periphery of the adapter's barrel. It also takes bayonet lenses.


Hal,

Don't have a picture of it handy, also I modified mine somewhat to work the way I wanted it to on the Arriflex 35 IIC.

If your adapter has the two rectangular release buttons and also takes bayonet lenses, 99% sure that is the one ARRI made. Does it have a couple of little scoops on the front face, with little index lines through each of the little scoops on the front? If so, that is the one ARRI made to be used with the SR3 and older Zeiss lenses.

Best,
-Tim
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#8 Tim Carroll

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 07:43 AM

Tim,

Would you please post a picture of your Les Bosher Arri Std (Cooke) to PL adapter? I've got a PL adapter I bought off eBay that works with the Cookes and I'm curious who made it. It's got two rectangular release buttons on the periphery of the adapter's barrel. It also takes bayonet lenses.


Okay Hal, found the pictures.

Here is the Les Bosher adapter:

Posted Image

Here is the ARRI made adapter:

Posted Image

Best,
-Tim
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#9 Hal Smith

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:20 AM

Here is the ARRI made adapter:


Posted Image


Tim,

Thank you for posting the pix. I've got the Arri adapter. Bought it for cheap money off eBay from someone who didn't even know what it was for, they just knew it had something to do with cameras.

Fortunately they posted a pretty good picture and I could tell it was an Arri mount Cooke & bayonet to PL adapter.
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#10 Tim Carroll

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 02:31 PM

Hal,

Have you tried that ARRI adapter on any of the newer ARRI 35mm cameras? One of the issues with the Cooke adapter is that you can't use it on the latest ARRI gear. It works fine on Arriflex IIC PL converted cameras, and on Arriflex 16SR/SRII PL converted cameras, and on the Arriflex III cameras, but it won't fit into the newer cameras like the 435, 235, ARRICAM LT or Studio.

Would love to know if the one ARRI made works on the newer cameras.

Best,
-Tim
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