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Using 200 ft daylight spools?


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#1 Jarl Robert Kristiansen

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 07:01 PM

Hi,
I am a filmstudent relatively new to film. I bought a ACL with a 200ft mag to experiment with.
So I have bought some short ends and got them in 200" lengths (on what I presume are daylight spools). I have however gotten a little confused lately reading about using a-minima loads and how you must break off stuff to make it fit in the eclairs mag.

Also, I recently read that you must have a core adapter (some sort of plate?) to load anything else than 100" daylight spools. I was just about to order some 200" daylight spools as takeup spools, will I get into trouble here?

Thanks in advance!
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#2 John Sprung

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 07:24 PM

I never used an ACL, but I remember with the NPR, there was an issue with daylight spools rubbing on the inside of the magazine, and making noise. Check with your lab, they used to give out empty daylight spools and cans for free. They may also be able to give you a lightstruck short end to use in testing the noise issue.





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#3 Ian Cooper

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 02:16 AM

Hi,
I am a filmstudent relatively new to film. I bought a ACL with a 200ft mag to experiment with.
So I have bought some short ends and got them in 200" lengths (on what I presume are daylight spools). I have however gotten a little confused lately reading about using a-minima loads and how you must break off stuff to make it fit in the eclairs mag.

Also, I recently read that you must have a core adapter (some sort of plate?) to load anything else than 100" daylight spools. I was just about to order some 200" daylight spools as takeup spools, will I get into trouble here?

Thanks in advance!


"normal" 200ft daylight spools are just like a 100ft spool, only bigger!
They have the same sized square drive hole.

If you've bought 200ft short-ends, I wouldn't automatically assume they're on daylight spools. Apart from the A-Minima loads (which are different anyway) film isn't generally available on 200ft daylight spools these days. It is still possible to buy empty 200ft spools new (eg. from here), but not ready loaded with film.

I would tend to assume any short-ends you buy will come on a 'core'. ...so it's best to open the can in a changing bag first to find out - you don't want to see it isn't on a spool! ;)


Regarding using A-Minima loads in an ACL, I found this reference on an older thread:

And the great thing about it is you can use A-Minima loads. I have used them before. Its important to have several standard spare cores on hand because the replacement core in the A-Minima load does not have a slot (it's non-standard). You need to remove the flanges in a black bag or tent by turning them counter clockwise. Load it exactly the way it shows in the ACL I manual.


Looking on page 35 of the Aaton manual would tend to suggest the A-Minima loads come on core with a standard diametre hole in the middle and removable side cheeks.


If you need a manual for the ACL, a copy can be found <<online here>> On page 13 it shows a core sitting on the 'core adapter plate'. In practice it isn't anything too fancy. Obviously that's not too much help if you haven't got any, but as a last resort it shouldn't be too difficult to fabricate something suitable if you have access to a workshop.


Best of luck with your 'new' camera! :)
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#4 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 02:04 AM

Ian is right - If you have a 200' short-end, well that is suggesting it is the short end of a bigger roll, which of course can only be a 400' roll. And 400' rolls only come on cores, not spools. It's unlikely it's an A-Minima load because they come in 200' so that would not really be considered a "short end" for the A-Minima, it would be considered a full spool.

I would say it is most likely that you simply have 200' of film on a regular core. Open in it a changing bag to be sure. Though you absolutely can shoot that film, you are missing some parts and making things much more complicated than necessary. If I were you, I would just sell those short ends on ebay and use that to buy 100' daylight spools instead. If it does turn out that you have 200' daylight spools, that would be very surprising. 200' daylight spools are not common at all.

If you really want to shoot your 200' short ends, you have two options:

The first option is to buy two core adapter "platters" for the ACL so you can load film on a core (you can see what this looks like at this page, 0:45 into the video: http://eclair16.com/...s/loading-film/ ) Unfortunately the platters are a specialty item. The best bet would be to call Bernie or one of the other techs to see if they have some. I've seen some show up once on eBay in the past few years. I think the last time I looking, it was $250 for a pair of platters. Also the 200' mags are a tight squeeze with 200' of film. Short ends are not an exact science of footage so they might be a little under or over 200'. If it's over, there is a chance when you go to load it that it won't fit in the mag and it could be quite a mess fumbling around in the changing bag.

The second choice is to re-spool the film onto two 100' daylight spools, which are cheap on eBay. (or 200' spools of course). The problem here is that you have to have a film winder to do that. They go on ebay for $250 or so, or else you can try to find parts to make yourself a DIY one. For your first time shooting, though, it just seems like so much extra work and risk of damaging your film. If your school has a winder, or you have a friend at a lab though, this might be a reasonable option.

Well, there is a third option as well, which is to buy a 400' magazine. You'll have to duke it out on eBay with the rest of us for that because they rarely show up and they fetch pretty good prices!

I hope you don't take this as discouragement - I'm just trying to suggest the easiest way to go out and shoot with your camera. In my opinion, stick with 100' daylight spools until you're able to get the gear you need to use film on cores. I hope to see your footage posted here someday soon!
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#5 Ian Cooper

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:00 AM

...The first option is to buy two core adapter "platters" for the ACL so you can load film on a core...
...Unfortunately the platters are a specialty item...
...I think the last time I looking, it was $250 for a pair of platters....


From the look of the photos (I've never seen an ACL 'in the flesh') the adapter 'platters' just look to be smaller diameter versions of the 400ft ones used in the NPR. If that's the case, then it might be worth also keeping an eye out for some NPR ones if you know of someone (or a friendly jobbing engineering firm) who could pop them in a lathe to turn the outside diameter down! ;)




...The problem here is that you have to have a film winder to do that. They go on ebay for $250 or so, or else you can try to find parts to make yourself a DIY one...


Lol.
For the DIY approach, I might recommend you visit the post I just made in the Bolex forum



I'd also personally tend to start off with a commercial 100ft load whilst testing the camera, before worrying about respooling my own.
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#6 Jarl Robert Kristiansen

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 02:02 PM

Thanks for the reply's!
I asked the company I ordered the short ends from to spool them over in 200" lengths, and I checked today to confirm that the film is indeed delivered on 200 daylight spools.

I am looking for a 400" magazine on various outlets, but they seem to be very hard to get by, with prices pretty steep from film company's :-)

The real question is, has anyone tried using 200" daylight spools with the ACL magazine? Will it rub against the inside of my magazine and make excessive noise like with the NPR as John mentioned?
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#7 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 02:38 PM

I asked the company I ordered the short ends from to spool them over in 200" lengths, and I checked today to confirm that the film is indeed delivered on 200 daylight spools.


wow, that's surprising - can i ask where you ordered those? I've been wanted to try some 200' daylight spools. I actually much prefer using the 200' magazines just because they're small and light. But constantly loading the 100' spools gets to be a drag and I haven't delved into winding the film myself. Be sure when you take it to the lab to tell them to give you your spools back because normally they just give you the processed film back on a core.

As far as the sound, the ACL is generally pretty quiet but sometimes the mag can be a source of noise if things are rubbing and they might need occasional service. I don't think the spool would necessarily be different from the core plate in that respect.
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#8 John Sprung

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 02:54 PM

The difference is that the core adapter has a flange on the inboard side only, while the spool has flanges on both sides. It's the outboard side that might rub against the mag cover because it's thicker than a roll of film by itself. You can test this with a lightstruck short end, so as to have both the feed and takeup sides turning.




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#9 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:33 AM

The difference is that the core adapter has a flange on the inboard side only, while the spool has flanges on both sides. It's the outboard side that might rub against the mag cover because it's thicker than a roll of film by itself. You can test this with a lightstruck short end, so as to have both the feed and takeup sides turning.


strangely with my mag i find the cores can be louder than the spools because the film isn't held in place on both side. It starts to cone a bit and it rubs against the mag cover. I sometimes have to stop half way through a 400' spool, put it back in the changing bag and push the film back. somebody told me once that a trick is to give the mag a good smack on the feed side to keep it from coning but it still winds up getting noisy towards the end of the roll for me.
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#10 John Sprung

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:15 AM

We used to do that same mag slapping thing with the Mitchells.



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#11 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:30 PM

"If that's the case, then it might be worth also keeping an eye out for some NPR ones if you know of someone (or a friendly jobbing engineering firm) who could pop them in a lathe to turn the outside diameter down! ;) "

You know I bought what I thought was a 200 ft. platter (ebay), but it turned out to be a 400. So since I was set with platters on my 400 ft mag, I did just that Ian; I had someone grind it down using a 200 footer as a reference. BUT, it didn't work, it appeared to turn evenly, so perhaps there was a balance issue. When I used it on the take up side it jammed, but on the feed side it was fine. BTW, the aminima's worked great on mine.

Tom
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#12 Ian Cooper

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 02:19 AM

...You know I bought what I thought was a 200 ft. platter (ebay), but it turned out to be a 400. So since I was set with platters on my 400 ft mag, I did just that Ian; I had someone grind it down using a 200 footer as a reference. BUT, it didn't work, it appeared to turn evenly, so perhaps there was a balance issue. When I used it on the take up side it jammed, but on the feed side it was fine. BTW, the aminima's worked great on mine.

Tom


Well if nothing else, it worked on the feed side :) - just making it necessary to find a 'proper' one for the take-up! ;)

I'm not sure how yours was 'ground' down, but certainly if it's turned, including with the top edge taper, then appropriately deburred all on the lathe, there won't be any balance issues as it will all be concentric. There must have been some other factor at work - hey ho, it was only an idea off the top of my head.

Back to the daylight spools then! :rolleyes:
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#13 Evan Ferrario

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 11:40 AM

I don't know if this conversation is good and over, but I wanted to offer a few options I have found. I went through the process of trial and error trying to get 200 foot loads in my ACL. First of all, a metal 200 foot daylight spool will not fit in the magazine, although 100 footers fit just fine, I've tried 200 and 400 foot daylight spools and both ended up rubbing the sides of a magazine.

Like others mentioned, the special made Eclair spool adapters are hard to find. You can however, just use a core adapter like this http://cgi.ebay.com/...0#ht_500wt_928. Look around, you can find them cheap. I actually use these in my 400 foot mag instead of the Eclair adapters, because it runs quieter, it doesn't make a difference that the one wall is missing, it only makes it a little trickier to get the film out of the magazine because the plate isn't there to help.

A-minima loads are really easy to remove the sides and inside it is a normal core like you would find on a 400 foot load. I loaded my ACL 200 to the MAX it would properly run with one day and that is about 260 feet. Although you aren't going to find loads this size, its good the know the most it could take.
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#14 Boris Belay

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 08:01 AM

I don't know if this conversation is good and over, but I wanted to offer a few options I have found. I went through the process of trial and error trying to get 200 foot loads in my ACL. First of all, a metal 200 foot daylight spool will not fit in the magazine, although 100 footers fit just fine, I've tried 200 and 400 foot daylight spools and both ended up rubbing the sides of a magazine.

Like others mentioned, the special made Eclair spool adapters are hard to find. You can however, just use a core adapter like this http://cgi.ebay.com/...0#ht_500wt_928. Look around, you can find them cheap. I actually use these in my 400 foot mag instead of the Eclair adapters, because it runs quieter, it doesn't make a difference that the one wall is missing, it only makes it a little trickier to get the film out of the magazine because the plate isn't there to help.

A-minima loads are really easy to remove the sides and inside it is a normal core like you would find on a 400 foot load. I loaded my ACL 200 to the MAX it would properly run with one day and that is about 260 feet. Although you aren't going to find loads this size, its good the know the most it could take.


Hello Evan,
I don't know what happened with your spools and or magazine, but there is no problem putting a standard 100ft, 200ft, or 400ft daylight spool in an ACL magazine (in proper shape). All you need is to remove the flange that supports film on core and any of these spools WILL fit. Your problem may be with the mags, have them checked, or P.M. me for more details.
Best, B.
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