Jump to content


Photo

Choosing the camera


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 Tadeusz Kieniewicz

Tadeusz Kieniewicz
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Warsaw, Poland

Posted 17 May 2010 - 02:03 PM

Hi there all comunity of cinematography.com! I got money from school to shoot shoot in vacation time. Story is about a boy that is spending his whole vacation school break i his own town.

My problem is to choose the best camera system:) School don't want to pay for camera cuz they told me that they have camera ( Sony Z5 and its graet!!) but they sucks and I want to shoot at leat on:

Sony EX 1or3 with Letus extreme and zeiss compact prime or
Sony HDW 650 with P+S Technik with same zeiss compact prime or
Canon 5D with zeiss prime lens with nikkon mount via conon-nikon adapter

What do you think? Maybe there is an other way, an other camera system that i don't know?


I'd like to shoot super16 on kodak 500T with arri sr3 but school wont give money for procesing damn.....same with RED stupid school:)


thanks for your time!

Ted. Warsaw
  • 0

#2 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 17 May 2010 - 03:10 PM

Picking the right system is a difficult task and depends a lot on what you know well as well as what serves the look of the story the best in conjunction with budget and style of shooting. So, what I'm saying is that we'll need more information from you before we can give any suggestions.
  • 0

#3 Chris Durham

Chris Durham
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 290 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • New York, NY

Posted 17 May 2010 - 03:32 PM

Definitely, more information please. The Z5U is a great little camera; I've shot on it quite a bit. I'm not a big fan of DoF adapters in general, but if that's what you're going for I'm not sure how much difference you'll see between the Z5U and EX1 (I think the EX1 is generally a superior camera, but people who shoot with adapters tend to focus on the adapter more than the camera - and you can lose something in that; plus I don't think it's a big jump). If you can get an EX3 you'll benefit from the slightly larger sensor (theoretically a larger sensor should mean more dynamic range and more light collection and thus less prone to light loss from the adapter). I won't get into opinions on the 5D because my feelings on it reflect fairly deep ambivalence - I'll just say that it can look very good but that doesn't mean that it is very good.
  • 0

#4 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 17 May 2010 - 03:38 PM

for clarity, both the EX1 and the EX3 have the same sensors. EX3 just has more professional outputs/inputs and allows removable lenses, which means you could mount an adapter on it more easily than an EX1
  • 0

#5 Chris Durham

Chris Durham
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 290 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • New York, NY

Posted 17 May 2010 - 04:12 PM

My apologies. For some reason I was incorrectly remembering that the EX1 had 1/3" chips. I stand corrected.
  • 0

#6 Tadeusz Kieniewicz

Tadeusz Kieniewicz
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Warsaw, Poland

Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:35 PM

Great!

Actually for me it's easier to mount an adapter to EX 1 than EX 3. Adapter mounted directly to camera body (through special other connection lens) it's more complicated to find for me because letus 35 is just put on the top of lens in EX 1 or 3.

Ok:

I'm planing to take 3 days of shooting

4 exteriors [ small park in neighbor, public swimming pool both at DAY] other 2 exteriors are streets of warsaw passed by guy on bicycle about 3 shoots and that I would like to shot at magic hour and at NIGHT a Train station]
1 interior [typical europe flat in downtown, old, lots of wood ]

Me and dir. wants to achieve a look of hot day during vacation. No water for 3 weeks, totally blue sky or with some clouds - depend on weather:) it would be nice to feel humid in the exterior day shoot - even in interior shoot in flat. Windows will be open, guy will be laying on a sofa eating pizza in big living room. My idea is to keep those shoot in yellowish bit orange tone.

There are 3 to 5 shoots of guy riding bicycle on a street during magic hour (it would be the best option i think) and few shoots of night. Those part is still open and i'm not sure yet what style should have, but i'd like to experiment with some technigue. I don't want it too realistic. I don't have an idea how special hot night in short could look like maybe because it will be my first serius shoot of night for film (usig large hmi or other big units) So acording to this i'd like to hear of your expierience about situations like these? Not asking for advice how exactly how to do it but for sure many of you are having shoots like these in your reels or i'm not to informated, but Adrien your showreel is prety impressive for me:) I like shoots with that kind of mood:)


Technically:

I have preety big chance to use lot of lighting equipment. My school coorporate with lighting magazine so i will have a gafer and HMI up to 12K Arri sun is not problem i think. Same with kino flos kobold and Arri studios.


Is that amount of information is enough to analizy which system go for? :)

Thanks for your time!

Ted.
  • 0

#7 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:59 PM

I'm flattered you liked the reel Tadeusz;


Honestly, in such a case I'd probably look towards the EXs on the lower end. The Codec works out much better than HDV, and the full 1920x1080 chips are also very nice. That being said, look into a NanoFlash if you opt to go this route as you can bypass the internal compression of the camera and compress to ProRes instead. Then again, I just happen to like the EX cameras.
I haven't used the 650 myself, but something like an F900 really is a workhorse and the benefit of a 2/3" camera system is that you would loose the need for a lens adapter and can more easily use proper cine lenses. Also there is some comfort in a typical tape based workflow and a feeling of knowing what you're going to get in the end which is very beneficial.

Perhaps you would also want to look into a D-Cinema package, such as the Red1 which will give you 35mm DoF and the ability to use standard PL mount lenses opening up a lot of possibilities. The problems here will come in post with dealing with the data, of which there will be plenty. A benefit here as well is their "raw" files which have a bit more room to play around with looks in the DI/TC session than you'll get with tape.. generally (though I'd say HDCam is on par with RED and HDCamSR blows it away.)

the Canon 5D and 7D have the benefit of being very small, low profile, with large sensors, great low-light capabilities and low cost. Their downside is generally ergonomically inasmuch as they don't interface normally with your typical film accessories. There are of course work around for that, but adding complexity doesn't help when a shoot is already complex enough (same issue here as DoF adapters in my opinion). If memory serves there are even some of these cameras outfitted with PL mounts and PV mounts to use cine lenses, which is another option to look into. The Codecs won't be as forgiving as anything from the video or D-Cinema world as it's already pretty heavily compressed h.264. You can do some post work on them, it's just not an ideal.

From the sounds of what you're trying to accomplish visually-- hot hazy summery, I'm imagining a bit of tinting going on and some blown out highlights as well as perhaps some atmospheric haze in some shots (or maybe just a mist or fog filter). If you can grab this look in camera adequately enough you can shoot on whatever you'd like. I would highly recommend testing out some in-camera techniques to get close on the competing systems. A lot will effect what "look" is captured in camera, most notable production design. Big lights and toys are really nice but a red dress is always a red dress if you know what I mean.

You also might well be served by looking into a 2 camera soloution... the Canons for the bike shots as you can rig the things to a bike and perhaps a RED for the rest of the show to help keep similar DoF characteristics and similar (or in the case of using a PL mount on the Canons, or a Canon mount on the RED) or the same lenses camera to camera. I think, in the end, without the option to make it a 35/16mm shoot I'd err towards RED and Canons for it. RED as my main system, as it's pretty ubiquitous now, understood, and package rates are coming down substantially, with a Canon 7D (for it's APS-C sensor which is the same size as the reds iirc) for specilty shots. Going this route, however, I must emphasize that you'll really want to down-grade the RED in post to 1080 --v- trying to scale the 7D up to 4K....

Hope this helps. Best of luck and I wish I could go shoot in Warsaw. Wanna change places ;)
  • 0

#8 Tadeusz Kieniewicz

Tadeusz Kieniewicz
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Warsaw, Poland

Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:27 PM

HaHa now You don't want! Now its like raining since 4 days. Temperature is about 15 degres of Celsius:) But i shoot in vacation and if You'd like to come for vacation for few days and take a look about this production and help me than for sure you could go back with some your own shots to your new reel:) in axample night warsaw streets:)


Yeah your post is huge and helpfull. As i mentioned i can orginaise RED1 and lomo anamorf lens like 35 f/1.4 from my teacher Andrzej Jaroszewicz who is a President of Polish Society of Cinematographers. Cool man. getting to point. I can have RED1 realy cheap with lens but not sure if i can make a free postproduction and all of that stuf ( editing,conforming, EDL,color grading and MASTER HD etc) Or i just feel a litle bit lost in case like these. My other works were editing on my iMac 24" on FCP and colorated in Magic Bullets look or colorista. Mostly shoot on EX 1 with letus extreme. like those shots under:

One of my first shoort on 1st year. title: Conversation. Max 2 minutes. EX 1 letus, zeiss compact prime 50mm 1.4 and 80mm 1.4 nikon 70-200 2.8


and Videoclip same EX with letus and lens but instead of 7-200 was 135 f/2.0 Canon



If I will not find way to get free post RED1 i'll choose EX3 with letus and zeiss maybe with HDCAM taperecorder through BNC/HD SDI i heard that in that way i could achieve 4:2:2 color sampling from EX is that right? and what advantage it gives me? There are no NANOFLASHERS in Poland noone has it:)


Ted.
  • 0

#9 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:36 PM

Well you know, on the new FCP, and I think even studio 2, you can bring in the r3d files directly. Else, you can also batch them through programs red provides to output to a ProResHQ file for a quick and dirty HD editorial. Then you can shoot it through color. It all depends on what you're editing on (FCP v AVID v Premier) as to what is the best post path. As for Lomo lenses, I really like 'em, and I'd say grab some if you can. They have a rather distinctive look, and- dare I say it- you could in theory shoot anamorphic for all the wonderful flare (so long as it works for the story). As for your color grad, you'd be surprised what one can do on the desktop, but in truth, save that for later on.. once you get it cut, you can go back and do a conform and since you're dealing with less footage overall, it should be "relatively" affordable. I'm not sure the rates over there in the EU but here in the states I can sneak myself into a 2K suite for a tape to tape for around $600-800/hr depending.
As for the 4:2:2, yep, that's right, you just record off of the HD-SDI output to an appropriate recorder, though honestly, an HDCamSR Deck to a EX1 is a bit overkill (HDCam is only 3:1:1 if memory is serving me rightly at the moment), at such point I'd say upgrade to the HDCam proper and save yourself the trouble. Also with a 2/3" chipset you have an effective DoF of 16mm film and could use some Digiprimes which are very nice lenses.

I recall the 2nd clip, the music video, you posted for help on it here. Looks very nice, meant to say so earlier, must've forgotten. I also really like the 1st clip though some of the highlights in the opening job show the one issue with an EX and letus, and that's the highlight clip. So it goes on video; for want of some film stock.
  • 0

#10 Tadeusz Kieniewicz

Tadeusz Kieniewicz
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Warsaw, Poland

Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:49 PM

But didn't HDcam with digiprimes like canon or fujinon (is that right?) looks like a simpe sitcom on TV? In Poland evry TV storyies are shoot on HDcam 700 or XDCAM and they look so flat and plastic...can't look on it! Or it's just depend on color grading and same material could look more like film ?
  • 0

#11 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 17 May 2010 - 07:06 PM

Depends mostly on lighting. I mean, I used to watch Star Trek the Next Generation; a lot, and it was boring TV lighting.. but their movies, such as generations, same sets, same cameras (pannavision) still on film just change out the lighting and things change. Granted, they were anamorphic for the films. Almost any camera can look either crap of great; all depends on how it's used, what it's pointed at, and how skillful the people behind/around it are ;)

Of course, there is a downfall with video where you have a lot less room all in all -v- film and on HD skintones never seem to look right to my eyes at least (though I say the same thing about skin under HMIs and Kinos).
  • 0

#12 Tadeusz Kieniewicz

Tadeusz Kieniewicz
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Warsaw, Poland

Posted 18 May 2010 - 10:02 AM

Thanks.
Right, about anamorf. I'd like to shoot 2.35:1 and don't know is it posible to shoot with anamorphic lens on EX 3 with letus or HdCam ? Or its easier to crop the image of 25mm lens and use it as 50 mm fo example hmm?
  • 0

#13 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 18 May 2010 - 10:33 AM

You know, honestly on the Letus I'm not sure if it'd work-- I would say it ::might:: as the letus has a large ground glass and you can of course unsqueeze the image as needed in any NLE to make it work.... But, again you'd really have to test it out. I think the biggest issue would be that the XDCam would still be recording in 1.78:1 a 1.33:1 2x squeezed image. My mind, honestly, can't get around what that would do to thinks at this hour.
Now, on a 2/3" camera, or S16mm there are some 1.3x squeeze anamorphic lenses which will work; but they're hard to come by. I think there is a set out in the UK, though the name of the set escapes me at the moment.
For certainty you can do anamorphic on the Red/canons, everything else is just my guessing.
  • 0

#14 Tadeusz Kieniewicz

Tadeusz Kieniewicz
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Warsaw, Poland

Posted 18 May 2010 - 12:30 PM

what kind of anamorphic on canon are you talking about? If you want to mount a PL lens onto a canon 5D you have to rebiuld the body and mount the PL mount in the camera that is quite dificult for noob:) so maybe thare are some other lenses which fits to canon and do the anamorf squeze:)??
  • 0

#15 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 18 May 2010 - 12:35 PM

That's true; though I believe some people may have hard-mounted PL bodies. Also, someone on here has shot anamorphic on a canon before for stills.. there was a thread 'bout it. try a search.
  • 0

#16 Jacob David

Jacob David
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Other

Posted 12 January 2011 - 07:49 AM

Canon 5D was my first full frame camera. Prior to it I had owned and operated a 40D, 30D and Rebel XTi. I am a wedding and sports photographer primarily, so I have been able to test the 5D Mark II out under both of these conditions. The batteries this camera use really do hold a charge for a while. I used mine with the battery grip at the wedding, and the two batteries after going for over 500 shots
The new LCD screen is gorgeous. 3" diagonal with 900,000+ pixels.
-Full frame = Real wide angle. My 17-40 lens can now work as it's supposed to.
-High ISO with amazing quality.
-High quality LCD with a light sensor, so no need to adjust LCD brightness from time to time. It's neat.
-Autofocus microadjustment by lens.
  • 0


Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Glidecam

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

Technodolly

CineLab

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International, LLC

Wooden Camera

rebotnix Technologies

Willys Widgets

Abel Cine

The Slider

Visual Products

Tai Audio

Rig Wheels Passport

Paralinx LLC

Opal

Metropolis Post

Opal

FJS International, LLC

Abel Cine

Visual Products

Wooden Camera

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

rebotnix Technologies

CineTape

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

Tai Audio

The Slider

CineLab

Glidecam

Rig Wheels Passport

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Metropolis Post

Willys Widgets