Jump to content


Photo

Registration Test


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Simona Analte

Simona Analte
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts
  • Student

Posted 26 May 2010 - 12:11 AM

Hello

Im sorry I have to say I have a bit of silly question but I must know!

I plan on doing a Registration/Steadiness test on Aaton 16mm which has Coaxial Mag.

I understand the steps of doing the test, but my question is;

After doing the 1st Bypass, it says to rewind the film manually to the beginning. How do I rewind the film (in the dark ofcourse), if the
film was initially wounded into the core on the Feed Side of the Mag?

How is this process done?

Thanks much
  • 0

#2 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 26 May 2010 - 12:58 AM

Hello

Im sorry I have to say I have a bit of silly question but I must know!

I plan on doing a Registration/Steadiness test on Aaton 16mm which has Coaxial Mag.

I understand the steps of doing the test, but my question is;

After doing the 1st Bypass, it says to rewind the film manually to the beginning. How do I rewind the film (in the dark ofcourse), if the
film was initially wounded into the core on the Feed Side of the Mag?

How is this process done?

Thanks much


I don't know if aaton mags will allow you to manually wind backwards. If it will let you, just go into the darkroom, remove both doors and hand wind the film backwards. If the magazines won't let you wind backwards, you just have to do it with rewinds in the darkroom. Rental houses should have a set of rewinds you can use, if they don't have a set in every darkroom.
  • 0

#3 Rob Vogt

Rob Vogt
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 437 posts
  • Other
  • New York

Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:05 AM

Or after you do your first pass, you could transfer the film to a reversing mag that they might have, (maybe an SR3 or 416 I've never done this for 16) then transfer back to the aaton.
  • 0

#4 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:02 PM

Or after you do your first pass, you could transfer the film to a reversing mag that they might have, (maybe an SR3 or 416 I've never done this for 16) then transfer back to the aaton.


That's a great idea, since you're at the rental house anyway. I think SR3 highspeed will run backwards, but don't quote me on that.
  • 0

#5 Larry Nielsen

Larry Nielsen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 35 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:25 PM

Lemme see if I have this right, roll off 100' for a steady test/registration test. Break it, so I can load it into the take up side of a 16sr mag backwards, so I can rewind it on the camera, then transfer it back into the Aaton mag so I can shoot it again?
  • 0

#6 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:39 PM

Lemme see if I have this right, roll off 100' for a steady test/registration test. Break it, so I can load it into the take up side of a 16sr mag backwards, so I can rewind it on the camera, then transfer it back into the Aaton mag so I can shoot it again?


Exactly. This all depends on whether or not the rental house has a 16mm camera that can be run backwards, though. The issue has never come up so I don't even know if such a camera exists, personally.
  • 0

#7 Larry Nielsen

Larry Nielsen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 35 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:46 PM

I think I'll stick to lurking
  • 0

#8 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7115 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 26 May 2010 - 11:04 PM

When I did it on my SR3, a long time ago, I seem to recall just loading up 100', shooting a bit of it not too much so as to run the mag out. Pulling the mag off and going back into the tent and just puling the film out of the film guides, so it loops up, and then gently tugging it back onto the pay side of the mag winding it up back onto the spool until I felt the take up side spool get small closing up the pay side of the mag, leaving a few feet on the takeup to be killed when i took it out of the tent. ripping, reforming the loop, and reloading.
Typed it sounds a lot more complicated than it really was...
  • 0

#9 Dom Jaeger

Dom Jaeger
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1596 posts
  • Other
  • Melbourne, Australia

Posted 09 July 2010 - 02:42 AM

Exactly. This all depends on whether or not the rental house has a 16mm camera that can be run backwards, though. The issue has never come up so I don't even know if such a camera exists, personally.

The only 16mm cameras that run in reverse as far as I'm aware are the Bolex and the Arri ST. And possibly the old CP16, but you'd be lucky to find one of them these days.
I'd follow Chris's first advice, either rewind manually in the mag or use a core to core rewinder.
  • 0

#10 richard bellon

richard bellon

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Steadicam Operator

Posted 09 July 2010 - 07:17 AM

When I did it on my SR3, a long time ago, I seem to recall just loading up 100', shooting a bit of it not too much so as to run the mag out. Pulling the mag off and going back into the tent and just puling the film out of the film guides, so it loops up, and then gently tugging it back onto the pay side of the mag winding it up back onto the spool until I felt the take up side spool get small closing up the pay side of the mag, leaving a few feet on the takeup to be killed when i took it out of the tent. ripping, reforming the loop, and reloading.
Typed it sounds a lot more complicated than it really was...



this is the easiest and simplest way to do it
  • 0

#11 Tom Jensen

Tom Jensen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1234 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 09 July 2010 - 09:41 AM

This is starting to sound complicated. Having never done one on an Aaton, I would just ask the tech at the rental house what he or she does. Running the film through a different camera sounds complicated. First off, the mag that it is shot on will more than likely work. Secondly, if it doesn't, the house will likely have rewinds. And thirdly, what rental house will want to set up and power a second body in reverse so you can rewind film? Seems like overkill. You don't need to shoot 100" of 16mm either. 50' should be more than enough. Don't forget to mark the film with an x. Pull the lens, open the shutter and through the port draw an outline on the emulsion using the gate as an outline. Then draw an X from the corners. I know some people who used a one whole punch in the middle of the frame to make it easier to locate. I had always read that you should underexpose the film by a stop because of the double exposure but Reinhart from Otto Nemenz told me not to bother. I usually exposed both passes normally and it came out fine with a denser negative. He also never moved the chart but he lowered a camera leg. The first pass, he lined up level and square. The he looked through the lens and lowered the camera down to the left so the chart was not level. What this did was twofold. It let you know which pass was which and it created an acute angles on the chart as opposed to 90 degree angles, making the registration problems easier to see. If I'm not mistaken, the Aaton 16 is not pin registered so it won't be perfect.

Edited by Tom Jensen, 09 July 2010 - 09:43 AM.

  • 0

#12 Kar Wai Ng

Kar Wai Ng
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 127 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Toronto, Canada

Posted 09 July 2010 - 12:31 PM

Don't forget to mark the film with an x. Pull the lens, open the shutter and through the port draw an outline on the emulsion using the gate as an outline. Then draw an X from the corners.


No need to do that with 16mm...one perf is one frame...
  • 0

#13 Tom Jensen

Tom Jensen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1234 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 09 July 2010 - 08:48 PM

No need to do that with 16mm...one perf is one frame...

Oh yeah, that's true. But, it does give you a reference point. Gotta start somewhere.
  • 0

#14 Jean-Louis Seguin

Jean-Louis Seguin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Other
  • Montreal, Canada

Posted 10 July 2010 - 06:49 AM

Hello

Im sorry I have to say I have a bit of silly question but I must know!

I plan on doing a Registration/Steadiness test on Aaton 16mm which has Coaxial Mag.

I understand the steps of doing the test, but my question is;

After doing the 1st Bypass, it says to rewind the film manually to the beginning. How do I rewind the film (in the dark ofcourse), if the
film was initially wounded into the core on the Feed Side of the Mag?

How is this process done?

Thanks much




Just run out all the film onto the take-up core.
Then, in the dark, loop the end around the two stationary rollers and reinsert back into the cross-over drum.
Then reattach to the feed core and wind back the film by hand.
This way you are completely bypassing the sprockets and the gate.
Then rethread normally and do your second exposure.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis
  • 0

#15 K Borowski

K Borowski
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3905 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • I.A.T.S.E. Local # 600 Eastern Region

Posted 10 July 2010 - 09:51 AM

Make sure you rewind the film BY HAND! Especially with 16mm, which relies on a single perforation for steadiness, using any machinery to rewind the film does a miniscule amount of distortion every time the film is run through.


I may have missed it in a prior response, but wouldn't it just be easiest to shoot 100 feet or whatever the lab minimum is as a minimum, cut it in the darkroom, shoot with each body 50 or 100 feet, and then rewind them all by hand and shoot again with each body?

I.E., you'd take a 200 foot spool, shoot 50 feet in body A (cut this off in the darkroom, throw it in can "A"), shoot 50 with body B, and body C doing the same thing, then go back in the darkroom, rewind each of A, B, and C by hand and shoot your second pass?


Only problem here is that there is the potential to mix up film doing the first pass on each body first.
  • 0

#16 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 10 July 2010 - 06:46 PM

By the way, you don't even need to mark the first frame as long as you fill the frame with whichever test pattern you prefer. You might double expose a frame line in the middle of the frame but the purpose of the test will still be perfectly valid.
  • 0

#17 Tom Jensen

Tom Jensen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1234 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 11 July 2010 - 01:58 AM

By the way, you don't even need to mark the first frame as long as you fill the frame with whichever test pattern you prefer. You might double expose a frame line in the middle of the frame but the purpose of the test will still be perfectly valid.

In grand scheme of things this is true. But, in the grander scheme of things you want it to look like it was done the standard. If the DP sits in on the test and sees that it has a frame line in the middle of the shot he may fuss. He may think you made a mistake and there is no reason do start off a film on the wrong foot especially if you have never worked for this person. They will find plenty of other reasons to hate you later. :blink:
  • 0

#18 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 11 July 2010 - 03:43 PM

In grand scheme of things this is true. But, in the grander scheme of things you want it to look like it was done the standard. If the DP sits in on the test and sees that it has a frame line in the middle of the shot he may fuss. He may think you made a mistake and there is no reason do start off a film on the wrong foot especially if you have never worked for this person. They will find plenty of other reasons to hate you later. :blink:


Very true. For (your, not the) image sake, it is a good idea to mark the threaded frame after all.
  • 0

#19 Kar Wai Ng

Kar Wai Ng
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 127 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Toronto, Canada

Posted 11 July 2010 - 05:11 PM

Also, when doing reg tests with S16mm (at least with the Aatons and Arri SR series mags) you must do a reg test for each mag that you are using. So if you have four mags, you have to do four separate reg tests. This is because the mag itself forms part of the film path: each mag has its own pressure plate and affects the way film travels through the gate. This is also true for the Aaton 35-III...any instant-change mag.

16mm is a far more time-consuming format to reg test than 35mm. Doing a reg test with a 435 or 535 takes less than half an hour (with reversing ability in-camera a real time-saver) but with 16mm it'll take the better part of a prep day, depending on how many mags you have. Having a 2nd help you in prep is a huge time saver, as you can hand off mags to be re-wound/canned/loaded while you do the tests. Exception is if you've got a 16mm camera with displacement mags (like a 16BL, or Elaine...then you only have to do one reg test with one mag) but you're not likely to encounter those cameras.
  • 0

#20 K Borowski

K Borowski
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3905 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • I.A.T.S.E. Local # 600 Eastern Region

Posted 11 July 2010 - 07:43 PM

Regardless of format constraints (never considered having to do a reg. test with each magazine on an Aaton 16!), I think it is important for the validity of the test to hand-rewind the film. If you HAVE to rewind the film in-camera, I would do it at the lowest possible speed, like 6 fps.
  • 0


The Slider

Metropolis Post

Wooden Camera

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Paralinx LLC

FJS International, LLC

Abel Cine

Ritter Battery

Technodolly

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

rebotnix Technologies

Glidecam

CineTape

Aerial Filmworks

Opal

Rig Wheels Passport

Willys Widgets

Tai Audio

Visual Products

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Aerial Filmworks

Willys Widgets

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineTape

The Slider

FJS International, LLC

Paralinx LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineLab

Ritter Battery

Glidecam

Metropolis Post

Visual Products

Tai Audio

Wooden Camera

Abel Cine

rebotnix Technologies

Technodolly

Opal

Rig Wheels Passport