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Automatic metering with Kodak's new 100D 8mm stock


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#1 Spencer Gilley

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 07:04 PM

Hello,

I have recently purchased an Elmo 350SL Super 8 camera and I was wondering if anybody has experience shooting with this camera, using Kodak's new 100D stock. I was wondering if the camera will automatically read the film cartridge and know that it is a 100D stock (and thus adjust the light-meter appropriately), or if i will have to use manual exposure and compensate for the camera "thinking" that the cartridge is 64 or 40ASA.

My reference for this is taken from http://breakoutbox.f...2007/05/64t.pdf , which states that the camera will NOT recognize the new 100D cartridge. However, in the camera manual, it is written that "When you load your film, it sets your camera automatically to the proper ASA film speeds as shown on the cartridge: Daylight is ASA 25 or 100; Artificial Light is ASA 40 or 160; Type G is ASA 160". The manual appears to state that the camera is aware of the existence of a 100D cartridge possibility and is equipped to handle it properly.

I know that most old stocks (from the era during which the camera was made) were tungsten-balanced, and usually these cameras, when shooting with the new 100D stock, will require to be set on the "tungsten setting", removing the internal 85 filter from filtering the light before it hits the film. Kodak mentions this on their website @ http://motion.kodak....re8_100D_SS.pdf

However, if the camera was manufactured to be aware of a 100D cartridge, then I should be able to use these settings as they are labelled on the camera, without fear of accidentally filtering light that should not be filtered.

If anyone has experience with this camera or a similar situation, it would be greatly appreciated to hear what you ended up doing.

Thanks for your time!
Spencer Gilley
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#2 Justin Donoghue

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 02:24 AM

Hi
According to super8wiki your camera has manual exposure which means you can adjust your exposure to suit the new 100D stock if you have either a seperate light meter or adjust the reading the internal light meter gives you: http://www.super8wik..._SL_Macro_Sound

The 100D cartridge has no filter notch so your camera will read it as either 40 or 160 depending on the width of the speed notch on the cartridge: http://www.super8wik...dge_Notch_Ruler If the camera sees it as 160T you need to increase light through the lens by 2 stops and if it reads it as 40T you need to reduce light through the lens by 2/3 stop, in both cases by manually adjusting the exposure value.

Edited by Justin Donoghue, 03 June 2010 - 02:27 AM.

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#3 Justin Donoghue

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 02:35 AM

ler If the camera sees it as 160T you need to increase light through the lens by 2 stops and if it reads it as 40T you need to reduce light through the lens by 2/3 stop


I meant:
If the camera sees it as 160T you need to increase light through the lens by 2/3 stop and if it reads it as 40T you need to reduce light through the lens by 2 stops
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#4 Art Leal

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:14 AM

If anyone has experience with this camera or a similar situation, it would be greatly appreciated to hear what you ended up doing.

Thanks for your time!
Spencer Gilley


This is a 40/160 and 25/100 ASA rated camera. The ASA notch on the 100D (towards the top of the cartridge) is cut the same way a 160T cart is cut, except for the fact that it has no notch cut near the bottom for the daylight filter. What this means is that your camera should see this as a 160 ASA film, then with the daylight filter pin "pushed" in from the same cartridge, it will kick it down to 100ASA. Now I don't know if your camera's daylight switch (on the camera's body) will override this, many don't. But just to be on the safe side I would keep it on the bulb setting.

Your camera should work fine with 100D.

Here are a few pictures showing how a roll of E-100D is notched alongside a roll of E-160T (Type A). They are identical except for the daylight filter notch.

Hope this makes sense. I have the feeling others may explain it a bit clearer than I did. Jim Carlisle (of this forum) has an excellent grasp of this and explains it in a straightforward, easy to understand manner (which I always need, since I tend to confuse myself..lol).


http://www.flickr.co...N08/4666439050/
http://www.flickr.co...N08/4666438946/
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#5 Jim Carlile

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 10:04 PM

You got it right, Art. If Kodak is notching this new film according to the SMPTE protocol then that's how it works.

They speed-notch it at the ASA 160 indice (it's actually 160T/100D), and then they use the notchless cartridge (with no lower filter notch) to set the meter to ASA 100 with the 85 filter retracted for daylight film, because it doesn't need it.

The 350SL will read 100D accurately. But there's an easy way to test it, and this method can be used with any S8 camera. Just aim somewhere without film and check the ASA reading. Then open the cartridge door and press in the filter pin at the bottom-- sometimes it looks like a little hook. If when you do this the aperture opens up a little bit-- meaning the needle moves to a smaller number-- then that means the meter is adjusting for the difference in the lower ASA.

Some later cameras will register no change, and others will not even have a filter pin at all. In this case they will not read the film correctly, although this might not matter too much-- it's only a 2/3 stop difference in film speed. Many camera will also allow manual metering, in which case you can use the auto as a guide and then manually tweak the aperture open that extra 2/3 stop.
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#6 Jim Carlile

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 11:25 PM

Let me correct something-- I just checked, and the 350SL will not read 100D correctly. Nor will any of the other Elmo sound cameras.

The reason for this is that they are "XL" cameras designed to read the old Ektachrome 'G' film, which is no longer available. That film was a required part of the XL designation. What Kodak did with 'G' film specifically was tweak the chemistry so it could be used both indoors and outdoors without an 85 filter, and at ASA 160. It was their flagship low-light product that was both daylight and tungsten at the same time.

But here's the problem. What they did was pack it in a notchless "daylight" cartridge so that the internal 85 filter would be automatically pulled out because it wasn't necessary. Since according to the SMPTE protocol a notchless cartridge would set light meters to the lower ASA of the speed indice, this meant that an ASA 160 daylight film had to be notched for ASA 250T/160D, which is the next size up. If they had speed-notched it at ASA 160T/100D then their notchless "daylight" cartridge would have automatically set meters to 100.

But some cameras wouldn't read over ASA 160 to begin with. So instead of completely redesigning their exposure meters to comply with the new XL 'G' film, what these manufacturers did instead was just disable the SMPTE filter-notch system so that their cameras would read only the high ASA of each separate speed indice. Because the Elmos would read the ASA 250 or higher notches as just plain ASA 160, that's how the new 'G' film would work in them.

In other words, the Elmos can't accurately read "daylight" film packed in daylight cartridges. They're not alone, either, as that method became the norm for most sound cameras. And obviously, this non-conventional notch reading method has caused lots of complications over the years. But who knew in the old days that this would be a problem-- because there were no daylight films in super 8!

So in a nutshell, the sound Elmos will read V200T at ASA 160, not 100; Tri-X at ASA 160 (it's notched at ASA 250 with the notchless cartridge kick-down); the new Plus-X at ASA 160 (underexposed); and the new 100D underexposed at ASA 160 as well.

None of this is a real predicament, but it's something to know about ahead of time.
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#7 Jim Carlile

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 01:40 AM

Hi
[...]
The 100D cartridge has no filter notch so your camera will read it as either 40 or 160 depending on the width of the speed notch on the cartridge: http://www.super8wik...dge_Notch_Ruler If the camera sees it as 160T you need to increase light through the lens by 2 stops and if it reads it as 40T you need to reduce light through the lens by 2/3 stop, in both cases by manually adjusting the exposure value.


It's actually the other way around. If a camera detects ASA 100 films as 160, then the difference is only 2/3 stop underexposed-- it thinks the film is a little more light sensitive than it is, and ASA 200 is one-stop from ASA 100 on the speed scale.

If the camera thought it was an ASA 40 film, then the difference between ASA 40 and ASA 100 is about 1 1/3 stops overexposed. It thinks the film is less sensitive than it really is by this amount, so it's giving you that much more light than you need.

After testing, I have found that the Elmo 350SL will read E100D (and the new Plus-X) as ASA 160. The same with the Elmos 612SXL and 1012SXL, and the later 230-260 series of sound cameras.

Here's the deal, though. E100D is so contrasty and saturated that a little bit of overexposure looks good-- it gives a more pastel result. And if you happen to project the film then this gives a nice bright image on the screen. In the old days this was a neat trick, to overexpose a little for a brighter picture.
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#8 Miguel Loredo

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 05:39 AM

Let me correct something-- I just checked, and the 350SL will not read 100D correctly. Nor will any of the other Elmo sound cameras.

The reason for this is that they are "XL" cameras designed to read the old Ektachrome 'G' film, which is no longer available. That film was a required part of the XL designation. What Kodak did with 'G' film specifically was tweak the chemistry so it could be used both indoors and outdoors without an 85 filter, and at ASA 160. It was their flagship low-light product that was both daylight and tungsten at the same time.

But here's the problem. What they did was pack it in a notchless "daylight" cartridge so that the internal 85 filter would be automatically pulled out because it wasn't necessary. Since according to the SMPTE protocol a notchless cartridge would set light meters to the lower ASA of the speed indice, this meant that an ASA 160 daylight film had to be notched for ASA 250T/160D, which is the next size up. If they had speed-notched it at ASA 160T/100D then their notchless "daylight" cartridge would have automatically set meters to 100.

But some cameras wouldn't read over ASA 160 to begin with. So instead of completely redesigning their exposure meters to comply with the new XL 'G' film, what these manufacturers did instead was just disable the SMPTE filter-notch system so that their cameras would read only the high ASA of each separate speed indice. Because the Elmos would read the ASA 250 or higher notches as just plain ASA 160, that's how the new 'G' film would work in them.


I understand your explanation and find it quite logical but why are you assuming that they were designed for 160D/250T necessarily and not for the 100D/160T as desired? Maybe the 160G type film was, in terms of colour balance, more next to a 160T than to a 160D... sounds very strange to me that if the manual says that it can cope with the 100D type so specifically, it couldn't be true.

Anyway, best way to find it out is to make a test :)
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#9 Justin Donoghue

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 07:43 AM

It's actually the other way around. If a camera detects ASA 100 films as 160, then the difference is only 2/3 stop underexposed-- it thinks the film is a little more light sensitive than it is, and ASA 200 is one-stop from ASA 100 on the speed scale.

If the camera thought it was an ASA 40 film, then the difference between ASA 40 and ASA 100 is about 1 1/3 stops overexposed. It thinks the film is less sensitive than it really is by this amount, so it's giving you that much more light than you need.


Yes you're right sorry if I confused the OP and everyone else. I tried to correct myself in the next post but posted the 2 stop figure again instead of 1 1/3. For some reason I used the 40 - 160 difference instead of 40 - 100! Anyway I think an important thing here is to shoot a test roll of film and see how it turns out and adjust accordingly. Shooting a test roll usually reveals all including letting you know whether your camera actually works!
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#10 Art Leal

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 02:57 PM

Let me correct something-- I just checked, and the 350SL will not read 100D correctly. Nor will any of the other Elmo sound cameras.

The reason for this is that they are "XL" cameras designed to read the old Ektachrome 'G' film, which is no longer available. That film was a required part of the XL designation. What Kodak did with 'G' film specifically was tweak the chemistry so it could be used both indoors and outdoors without an 85 filter, and at ASA 160. It was their flagship low-light product that was both daylight and tungsten at the same time.


Really good to know, thanks Jim. I have a Bauer C700XLM 40/160 camera that also has no filter pin inside the camera. Always wondered how it would read (or misread) the carts.
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#11 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 05:02 PM

40/160 ASA cameras also meter for 25/100 ASA. Any camera should read it based on the internal filter swith getting kicked out by the lack of filter notch in the cart. Or by manually switching your filter knob. Many times you may have to switch your knob to the tungston setting.

Edited by Anthony Schilling, 05 June 2010 - 05:04 PM.

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#12 Art Leal

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 05:55 PM

40/160 ASA cameras also meter for 25/100 ASA. Any camera should read it based on the internal filter swith getting kicked out by the lack of filter notch in the cart. Or by manually switching your filter knob. Many times you may have to switch your knob to the tungston setting.


Thanks Anthony....so the camera should read it as 100 ASA if it kicks out the daylight filter via the internal pin, but if the camera lacks an internal filter pin (like my Bauer), manually moving the daylight filter out of position via the switch on the side of the camera would also rate it at 100ASA, correct?
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#13 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 06:57 PM

Thanks Anthony....so the camera should read it as 100 ASA if it kicks out the daylight filter via the internal pin, but if the camera lacks an internal filter pin (like my Bauer), manually moving the daylight filter out of position via the switch on the side of the camera would also rate it at 100ASA, correct?

Most likely. Some cameras act different than others. The 100D cart is actually notched as 160ASA with no filter slot carved out. The best way to tell is to look at your light meter on auto expose, flip the tungston/daylight knob back and forth to see if there is any shift in the needle. If so, the lower f-stop on witch ever setting will correspond to 100ASA. I know the Nizo's rate 100ASA on the daylight setting, but most other models will be the tungston setting.
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#14 Miguel Loredo

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 05:34 AM

40/160 ASA cameras also meter for 25/100 ASA. Any camera should read it based on the internal filter swith getting kicked out by the lack of filter notch in the cart. Or by manually switching your filter knob. Many times you may have to switch your knob to the tungston setting.


That's what I have always thought, but unfortunately it's not always true...
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#15 Miguel Loredo

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 05:39 AM

Thanks Anthony....so the camera should read it as 100 ASA if it kicks out the daylight filter via the internal pin, but if the camera lacks an internal filter pin (like my Bauer), manually moving the daylight filter out of position via the switch on the side of the camera would also rate it at 100ASA, correct?


Nope, removing the internal filter would let your film expose as 160. Remember that the filter question was intended for T films, not for D.
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#16 Jamie Frazer Noakes

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 08:01 AM

After testing, I have found that the Elmo 350SL will read E100D (and the new Plus-X) as ASA 160. The same with the Elmos 612SXL and 1012SXL, and the later 230-260 series of sound cameras.


Hi - this is incorrect - The 612sxl and 1012sxl will read Plus-X correctly - just move the filter switch to tungsten - here is a test I made with Plus-X and my 612sxl :



Please also see a test Phil from Pro8 did with the new Kodak 100d stock and a Elmo 612sxl:



It is a little blown out with the whites - but I would say correctly exposed - so if the stock is notched the same as Plus-X - 100D the Elmo 612sxl and 1012sxl will read and expose correctly if you make sure the tungsten filter is disengaged.

I cannot say that the 350sl will work the same way - you will just have to test.

Hope this helps.
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#17 Chris Burke

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 08:29 AM

Hi - this is incorrect - The 612sxl and 1012sxl will read Plus-X correctly - just move the filter switch to tungsten - here is a test I made with Plus-X and my 612sxl :



Please also see a test Phil from Pro8 did with the new Kodak 100d stock and a Elmo 612sxl:



It is a little blown out with the whites - but I would say correctly exposed - so if the stock is notched the same as Plus-X - 100D the Elmo 612sxl and 1012sxl will read and expose correctly if you make sure the tungsten filter is disengaged.

I cannot say that the 350sl will work the same way - you will just have to test.

Hope this helps.



both links go to the same clip. I am interested in seeing the ektachrome 100d
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#18 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 10:13 AM

Nope, removing the internal filter would let your film expose as 160. Remember that the filter question was intended for T films, not for D.

Only if you do it manually. In most cameras when the filter is disabled by the cartridge, it tells the camera that the film is daylight balanced. So when a cart is notched for 160ASA, and lacks a filter notch therefore disabling the filter... the camera now reads the film as 100ASA. That is how PlusX was notched, as is 100D. Every camera should be able to read the film correctly.

To help clarify, lets say you have a old cart of Ekta 160. The cart is notched for 160ASA, and HAS a filter notch. The camera reads as 160ASA only when you manually disable the filter. If you leave the filter in place, it will read as 100ASA. This is how most cameras work (Nizo is an exception) All cameras should be able to read 100D correctly as they could all read K40.
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#19 Miguel Loredo

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 07:42 PM

Only if you do it manually. In most cameras when the filter is disabled by the cartridge, it tells the camera that the film is daylight balanced. So when a cart is notched for 160ASA, and lacks a filter notch therefore disabling the filter... the camera now reads the film as 100ASA. That is how PlusX was notched, as is 100D. Every camera should be able to read the film correctly.

To help clarify, lets say you have a old cart of Ekta 160. The cart is notched for 160ASA, and HAS a filter notch. The camera reads as 160ASA only when you manually disable the filter. If you leave the filter in place, it will read as 100ASA. This is how most cameras work (Nizo is an exception) All cameras should be able to read 100D correctly as they could all read K40.


You're right, I didn't know the Bauers case...

But not all cameras can read a 100D cartridge. There are some latter "XL" models designed for the old "Type G" film that work in a different manner and there is no way to make them set the stuff automatically for a 100D film, for example: Canon AF 514 XL-S, AF 310 XL and AF 310 XL-S. I think the Agfa Family is the same case.

Edited by Miguel Loredo, 06 June 2010 - 07:44 PM.

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#20 Jim Carlile

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 08:18 PM

Hi - this is incorrect - The 612sxl and 1012sxl will read Plus-X correctly - just move the filter switch to tungsten - here is a test I made with Plus-X and my 612sxl :



Please also see a test Phil from Pro8 did with the new Kodak 100d stock and a Elmo 612sxl:



It is a little blown out with the whites - but I would say correctly exposed - so if the stock is notched the same as Plus-X - 100D the Elmo 612sxl and 1012sxl will read and expose correctly if you make sure the tungsten filter is disengaged.

I cannot say that the 350sl will work the same way - you will just have to test.

Hope this helps.



Are you sure about that? I toggled the filter switch back and forth with a new Plus-X (same as E100D) and there was no difference in readings. I'll check again-- E100 will work well on those Elmos but not sure if it's because the exposure is spot-on.

Also, remember that Phil sometimes notches his films differently by design. Was he using the new Kodak E100D, or his own cut?

I need to correct something, too-- the results will be underexposed by 2/3 stop, not overexposed. The 40/160 'G' cameras will read the notchless 160T/100D cartridge as ASA 160, which means they think it's a faster film than it really is-- so they don't open up enough. But it's just 2/3 of a stop, which is still within the latitude of modern films.

About the ASA 100 with a filter thing, and why the instuction books make you think they will read ASA 100 and 25 films: just remember that SMPTE compliant cameras will meter at ASA 100 and 25 without the internal filter in place. The others will not-- what they are actually doing is metering at ASA 160 or 40, and then the internal filter cuts down the light by 2/3 stop, so the film acts as if it's ASA 100 or 25. But it's only an effective "as if" ASA with the internal filter in the daylight, not a real one.

The key is this: if your camera says it is "XL" but it only reads up to ASA 160, then it will most likely not read daylight films correctly, at least according to the SMPTE protocol. The reason for this is so that it can read properly notched ASA 160 daylight films like Ektachrome 'G' and Tri-X. If they used the SMPTE filter pin/kickdown method, but only read up to 160, then anything speed-notched at 160 or above in a notchless cartridge would be keyed in by them at ASA 100. So, the manufacturers disabled the filter pin kickdown.

As mentioned, some 160 'G' cameras will override this limitation by a toggling back-and-forth of the filter switch, like the silver Nizos, but not all.

Edited by Jim Carlile, 06 June 2010 - 08:23 PM.

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