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first super 8 film. need help!


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#1 LiamA

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 10:52 AM

hello

i'm about to become a film school graduate and as a graduation present my grandparents gave me their old super8 camera. it is a keystone xl100 (i know it's not top of the line) and i have a few questions before i start purchasing film and shooting.

i have been reading up on the film stocks available for super 8, and it seems this camera won't accept any of them because the ASA speeds aren't compatible with it. the xl100 accepts ASAs of 25-40 and 100-160. it seems that i can shoot on the ektachrome 100d film stock outside during the day, however i can't film on it inside due to the fact that there's no way to mount an 80a filter to the lens. i believe the asa drops to 25, which is still supported by the camera. additionally i can shoot on tri-x film, however the asa is too high for daylight shooting so therefore it's useless to me. it seems odd to keep switching between ektachrome 100d (color) film for when i'm outside, and switch to b&w tri-x film for when i'm inside.

is film speed *that* important when it comes to super 8? this camera will accept up to a 160 ASA, so if i were to put a Vision2 200T cartridge in it, would it be incredibly over exposed? ideally i would like to use tungsten balanced film in the camera since the camera already comes with a filter built in to shoot outside on tungsten balanced film.

additionally, the camera only films at 18fps which i know will give me issues when it comes to having the footage run through a telecine. is it difficult to have an 18fps film telecined?

i'm really excited to start experimenting with super 8. this will be my first super 8 film, and the first film-film i have shot on my own without the assistance of teachers at school, so any help would be greatly appreciated. i'm looking in to purchasing a canon 814 should i start enjoying filming on super 8. however, since this is my first time, my only option is to use the keystone.
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#2 John Young

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 08:15 PM

hello

i'm about to become a film school graduate and as a graduation present my grandparents gave me their old super8 camera. it is a keystone xl100 (i know it's not top of the line) and i have a few questions before i start purchasing film and shooting.

i have been reading up on the film stocks available for super 8, and it seems this camera won't accept any of them because the ASA speeds aren't compatible with it. the xl100 accepts ASAs of 25-40 and 100-160. it seems that i can shoot on the ektachrome 100d film stock outside during the day, however i can't film on it inside due to the fact that there's no way to mount an 80a filter to the lens. i believe the asa drops to 25, which is still supported by the camera. additionally i can shoot on tri-x film, however the asa is too high for daylight shooting so therefore it's useless to me. it seems odd to keep switching between ektachrome 100d (color) film for when i'm outside, and switch to b&w tri-x film for when i'm inside.

is film speed *that* important when it comes to super 8? this camera will accept up to a 160 ASA, so if i were to put a Vision2 200T cartridge in it, would it be incredibly over exposed? ideally i would like to use tungsten balanced film in the camera since the camera already comes with a filter built in to shoot outside on tungsten balanced film.

additionally, the camera only films at 18fps which i know will give me issues when it comes to having the footage run through a telecine. is it difficult to have an 18fps film telecined?

i'm really excited to start experimenting with super 8. this will be my first super 8 film, and the first film-film i have shot on my own without the assistance of teachers at school, so any help would be greatly appreciated. i'm looking in to purchasing a canon 814 should i start enjoying filming on super 8. however, since this is my first time, my only option is to use the keystone.


Welcome to super 8mm. First, film speed is always important to an extent. Film speed in whatever format, 8mm or 65mm, is film speed. I hate to think that you went to film school and didn't learn anything about film speed. My suggestion would be to read about film speed. Different speeds are going to give you more or less noticeable grain when projected.

You'll have to ask a keystone guru about the cartridge vs. that model of camera. Some film speeds are notched to tell the camera which speed is actually present.
I think you can still find 25ASA and such, and I believe Pro8mm carries some that you could use, if you liked that producer.

As I understand it, 18fps for telecine isn't going to be a major problem. The real problem is going to be sound sync.

Hope that little bit helps.
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#3 LiamA

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 10:21 AM

I hate to think that you went to film school and didn't learn anything about film speed. My suggestion would be to read about film speed. Different speeds are going to give you more or less noticeable grain when projected.


Thanks for your response! In regards to what was taught at film school, yes they went over ASAs and ISOs several times, but I'm still a little confused over it. It doesn't make sense that Kodak produces Super 8 film with ISOs that aren't supported by many of the original Super 8 cameras. I will pull out some old text books from school and re-read up on it again. Most of my classes over the past year have been post-production oriented, so information I learned prior is a little rusty.

Right now I just want to film something, but it's irritating me that I can't purchase film within the ISO range of the camera, nor can I add ND filters to the front of the lens to compensate for the light issue. AND, if I do find film that the camera will accurately film on, there's no guarantee that a lab will be able to process it. I guess that's what you get when you attempt to use old fashioned technology!

For the time being I'll just purchase some tri-x film and shoot on that. However, I'd like to shoot in color ideally.
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#4 Miguel Loredo

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 04:59 AM

Thanks for your response! In regards to what was taught at film school, yes they went over ASAs and ISOs several times, but I'm still a little confused over it. It doesn't make sense that Kodak produces Super 8 film with ISOs that aren't supported by many of the original Super 8 cameras. I will pull out some old text books from school and re-read up on it again. Most of my classes over the past year have been post-production oriented, so information I learned prior is a little rusty.

Right now I just want to film something, but it's irritating me that I can't purchase film within the ISO range of the camera, nor can I add ND filters to the front of the lens to compensate for the light issue. AND, if I do find film that the camera will accurately film on, there's no guarantee that a lab will be able to process it. I guess that's what you get when you attempt to use old fashioned technology!

For the time being I'll just purchase some tri-x film and shoot on that. However, I'd like to shoot in color ideally.


TRi-X is an ASA 200 film (160 ASA in Super8 as there's no "200" in this format) But B/W films are "D" and not "T", so you cannot use a Tri-X in a 25D/40T 100D/160T camera without overexposing it because your camera will think it is an ASA 100D (the highest D number it can recognize).

To use the Tri-X you can cut the lower notch of the cartidge to convert it to "T" so the camera will think it's a 160T film. The only difference is that you will shot in this case with the no. 85 filter enabled which could also be interesting in some cases.

Film is not old fashioned technology, is your camera which was very limited and "domestic use". Nowadays you can process ALL the film stocks you want. The Canon 814 is far better and can cope with all the ASA speeds.

You can use Vision 200T in any case because it's a negative film, not reversal, and this type of film has a lot of latitude. It's even recomended to overexpose it 1 stop or more.

Negative film cannot be projected, only printed or transferred to digital.

Edited by Miguel Loredo, 14 June 2010 - 05:02 AM.

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#5 LiamA

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 12:25 PM

You can use Vision 200T in any case because it's a negative film, not reversal, and this type of film has a lot of latitude. It's even recomended to overexpose it 1 stop or more.


That's good to hear since I wasn't able to collect the projector that was originally bought with the camera - too heavy and bulky.

Essentially you're saying that I can in fact use Vision 200T film in my camera even though the max ISO is 160? How over exposed will the film end up being? -- my intention with shooting super 8 film is to gain a better understanding of ISOs, film stock, latitude, longitude, exposure, etc. for a fairly cheap price.

thanks guys! :D
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#6 Miguel Loredo

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 03:28 PM

That's good to hear since I wasn't able to collect the projector that was originally bought with the camera - too heavy and bulky.

Essentially you're saying that I can in fact use Vision 200T film in my camera even though the max ISO is 160? How over exposed will the film end up being? -- my intention with shooting super 8 film is to gain a better understanding of ISOs, film stock, latitude, longitude, exposure, etc. for a fairly cheap price.

thanks guys! :D


Yes, Vision 200T is always 160T in the Super8 system. There is no 200.

BUT remember that negative Kodak films in Super8 are supossed to be "professional" stocks, and "professionals" do not use the internal filter of the camera, but a brand new one screwed directly on the lens, so the internal filter must be disabled (the Vision cartidge with no filter notch disables the filter automtically when you load it). Thus, Kodak negative cartridges, are notched as daylight but contain tungsten film. The problem with your low end camera is that you cannot screw a filter in the front lens, so you must enable the internal filter, by modifying the cartridge of your Vision film: All you have to do is to cut the lower filter notch in the cartridge and there you are a 160T Kodak negative film for your camera.

In this case Vision 200T (160T) would not be overexposed with your camera, unless you can work in manual mode for example.

Edited by Miguel Loredo, 14 June 2010 - 03:32 PM.

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#7 LiamA

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 03:45 PM

Yes, Vision 200T is always 160T in the Super8 system. There is no 200.

BUT remember that negative Kodak films in Super8 are supossed to be "professional" stocks, and "professionals" do not use the internal filter of the camera, but a brand new one screwed directly on the lens, so the internal filter must be disabled (the Vision cartidge with no filter notch disables the filter automtically when you load it). Thus, Kodak negative cartridges, are notched as daylight but contain tungsten film. The problem with your low end camera is that you cannot screw a filter in the front lens, so you must enable the internal filter, by modifying the cartridge of your Vision film: All you have to do is to cut the lower filter notch in the cartridge and there you are a 160T Kodak negative film for your camera.

In this case Vision 200T (160T) would not be overexposed with your camera, unless you can work in manual mode for example.


Thank you Miguel. You've been a great help.
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#8 Chris Burke

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 11:17 AM

here are some examples of both 7217 (200T) and 7219 (500T) in super 8. In both examples I didn't use the internal filter and with the sync test of 7219, I shot in full daylight on full auto, as I am assuming you might shoot. I hope this gives you a better idea about the stocks. The negative stock has an extreme amount of latitude, it can be over and under exposed a great deal. If you have a scene with no really bright highlights in it, overexpose even more than a stop. Remember, super 8 negative loves overexposure, super 8 reversal like a small amount of underexposure, but is much more finicky.






Edited by Chris Burke, 17 June 2010 - 11:18 AM.

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#9 Jim Carlile

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 08:46 PM

VISION 200T is always ASA 100 in the Kodak super 8 system, by design of the cartridge and the intent of Kodak.

200T will run well in any camera that can read ASA 160. It will set the meter to either ASA 160 or ASA 100, and that is perfectly fine for this negative stock-- Kodak prefers it overexposed, because that way you get a denser negative and have more to work with in either a transfer or a print.

I suspect 200T's cartridge will remove the internal 85 filter in the Keystone, which doesn't matter, as the color tinge can be removed in post. If you really want to be fancy you can cut a filter notch in the cartridge so the internal 85 is still useable. In this case the film will always be exposed at ASA 160 no matter the camera. If you want to use the camera's 85 filter this is probably how you'll have to go...it takes about 30 seconds to do it.

Yes, Ektachrome 100D is a hassle to use under artificial light-- you'll need the heavy 80 filter. That's why this is the first mainstream daylight super 8 film that Kodak has ever produced.
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