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IS IT POSSIBLE TO REMOVE THE Antihalation layer from kodak film?


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#1 Viviana

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 06:52 PM

Hello we are a group of photographers from méxico city (TALLER SELENIUM) trying to succesfully process S8, 16 mm and 35 mm film without having to send it to some lab (kodak). Most of what we do is experimental so we work on our MORSE tanks with both color and black and white film using in the first case the C-41 PROCESS. The problem is that we cant get rid of the Antihalation layer so after we WASH, DEVELOP, BLEACH, WASH AND FIX there is still this dense layer (green colored)that we have tryed but with no results to remove.

We have tryed a PREBATH (borax, Sodium Hydroxide, Sodium Sulfate (Anhydrous), and water) but the solution is very strong and has wiped away all of the emulsion. In other cases, we have done the C-41 process but the layer is still there, the negative is not clear.

We were also wondering if this antihalation layer is stronger is some vision films, since we have developed normal vision and the layer is not that visible but is still there. But when we processed vision 2 and 3 working with ASA up to 500 the layer is very dense.

If someone has any solution, response or has had any experience such as us, please share it with us.

thanks

http://danielselenium.blogspot.com/
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#2 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 07:17 PM

hello,
I am able to process ecpII films by hand in a lomo tank. This isn't the same as a morese re-wind tank of course. Anyway, I use the Kodak Pre-Bath (which I buy from Kodak directly). I give the film a full minute in the pre-bath agitating vigourously (which is not what Kodak intended). Then I wash twice, giving vigourous agitation. By then 99% of the rem-jet (anti-halation layer) is removed. I then continue with the process. After processing, I still have to wipe the base side of the film with a cloth to remove the last of the rem-jet. This system is not ideal, but it does work. Kodak intend the rem-jet to be removed completely after the pre-bath and before developing, not during the pre-bath as I do by my vigourous agitation.
You say your pre-bath is too strong. That is hard to understand. Is it the kodak ecnII formula pre-bath?
by the way, in Cinematography.com, the rules are that your user name must be your real name, not an avatar name.
richard
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#3 Viviana

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 11:04 PM

IT IS MY REAL NAME AND THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY.
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#4 Jim Carlile

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 01:11 AM

Why are you putting sodium hydroxide in the pre-bath? That's lye-- no wonder your emulsion is washing off. I'm surprised your skin isn't, too.

Just use a little borax in warm water, about 100 degrees, and maybe add some sodium carbonate. You can also use this same solution after processing to wipe the rem-jet off the base with a sponge or soft cloth, carefully.
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#5 Viviana

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 02:50 PM

oh! thanks, well we are still testing and just yesterday we tryed with a vision 2 500T 16mm film and our solution barely removed the layer! You said that it is too strong putting in sodium hydroxide?? well this recipe for a prebath we got it out of a kodak manual ... but then again we are trying all the possible solutions to remove the rem-jet.

We will try it out without the rest of the components but about how much sodium carbonate should it be enough for one liter of water? since that is the amount that takes to fill up the morse tank. And so far we have done the prebath after the bleaching, could it be done before adding on the developer??

Thank you for your reply.
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#6 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 04:18 PM

You need to use the recipe for ENCII processing, not C-41, different chemistry.
http://motion.kodak....nuals/index.htm
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#7 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:27 PM

Rem Jet backing is removed in the processor by first softening it in a tank of potassium bicarbonate which softens the backing and then there is a set of buffers with water jets which only touch the film base to remove and wash away the carbon Remjet.

That is the way we do it at Cine "some lab" Lab in Boston and every other ECN lab in the world...

-Rob-
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#8 Freya Black

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 06:57 PM

We will try it out without the rest of the components but about how much sodium carbonate should it be enough for one liter of water? since that is the amount that takes to fill up the morse tank. And so far we have done the prebath after the bleaching, could it be done before adding on the developer??

Thank you for your reply.


Jim is right, just use a little borax in warm water, about 100 degrees he says but not centigrade I think! ;)

Either do the bath before you start the c41 process, which would be the more normal procedure as Robert suggests or after the whole process.

I also suggest you do NOT do this in the morse tank. Process the film in the morse tank, remove the layer in a bucket or similar.

The remjet does not just magically come off in the borax. As Robert implied the water jets push the layer off the film in the normal process. What you need to do is soak the film in borax. That means letting the water/borax get all over the remjet and soak INTO it. Then you want to try and push the remjet off, you can try and squeejee it between two fingers. You need to do all this in total darkness obviously. Take your time and get it right.

love

Freya

Edited by Freya Black, 22 July 2010 - 06:58 PM.

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#9 John Sprung

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:53 PM

Rem Jet backing is removed in the processor by first softening it in a tank of potassium bicarbonate which softens the backing and then there is a set of buffers with water jets which only touch the film base to remove and wash away the carbon Remjet.


It's been quite a while since I've seen a processing line, but my recollection of it is that these buffers are mechanically driven drums with a cloth or fiberous surface, and they spin rather fast to rub against the base and dislodge the carbon. The whole process is done wet.

Can you give us a better idea of what the buffers are, how big they are, what the surface is, how fast they go....?



Thanks --




-- J.S.
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#10 Jim Carlile

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:06 AM

It's perfectly OK to remove the rem jet afterwards, too, by soaking it in the borax remover. Some people prefer this method, like Martin B. It's much easier, too, especially with the Morse tank.

You can use the ECN prebath but borax and a little sodium carbonate works well too, And yes, that's 100 degrees Farenheit! Warm water makes it easier to remove the remjet, but not too warm.

As for sodium hydroxide, I've never seen a prebath formula with lye in it! Some developers may have a bit of lye in them but not the soaks. I can't imagine what that would do. ..
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#11 Jim Carlile

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:16 AM

P.S.

Here's a great resource and some nice formulas for what you are doing:

http://www.handmadef...p-ecnTable.html

http://www.handmadef...orReversal.html
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#12 Freya Black

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:54 AM

It's perfectly OK to remove the rem jet afterwards, too, by soaking it in the borax remover. Some people prefer this method, like Martin B. It's much easier, too, especially with the Morse tank.


Presumably you could then do this in a bucket of warm water/borax in the light?! :)

My fear of doing it afterwards is that I have heard it be said that if you don't get it done at the time you process the film, it is impossible to get the remjet off later. I'm not sure if this is true or not but it makes me worried that the processing changes the renjet in some way? If so it might make it harder to get it off afterwards, but then lots of people seem to be getting it off after the processing without issue from what I have heard so what they hey, especially if you can see what you are doing!

love

Freya
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#13 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:28 PM

Can you give us a better idea of what the buffers are, how big they are, what the surface is, how fast they go....?
-- J.S.



There are two large slow turning buffers on our 35mm/16mm Treise ECN machine I don't know exactly but I think they turn at about 200 rpm or less there are allot of water jets in the stack with the buffers. See Pics.....

The slow turning buffers are nice because if there is a problem with the processor they will not damage the base.

-Rob-

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#14 John Sprung

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 01:59 PM

Thanks, Rob -- It's very helpful to know the real way of doing it as we try to cook up a DIY method.

I agree with Freya that the best point in the process to do this is after developing, but before drying, so you can work in the light, and you only get the emulsion wet once.

Here's the idea: Build a rig using two people and three rewinds. The outboard pair of rewinds would face one way, and one person would use them to run the film back and forth. Between them, put another rewind facing the other way. Cut out a round sponge to fit on a junker 400 ft. split reel, and put it on the middle rewind. The second person would crank the sponge reel rewind, and spray water or the borax solution from one of those plastic plant mist bottles. The beauty of this method is that you won't need to scrub as much as the professional machine does, because you can see when you've got it clean, and move on. If you don't quite get it clean, you can go back.

You might want to run a slow pass with the borax in the Morse tank just before this, and perhaps go back in the Morse for a clean water rinse afterwards.





-- J.S.
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#15 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:13 PM

The only problem with doing backing removal after developing is that the backing has a tendency to want to come off and stick to everything especially your emulsion. All the hand processes ECN I have seen has had uneven backing removal with bits stuck in it. This may be ok if that is the look your after but it is something to be aware of. Also some of that backing will come off in the developer or other baths while being agitated which is why in ECN2 processing it comes off first.

-Rob-
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#16 jasreckson

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 12:27 AM

All kodak films have this issue. Try out this, soak the film in bleach for about 5' at room temp, then wash 5', soak in fix 5' and wash 5' and then soak in stabilizer. This will almost remove the stains.
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#17 Freya Black

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 02:59 AM

All kodak films have this issue. Try out this, soak the film in bleach for about 5' at room temp, then wash 5', soak in fix 5' and wash 5' and then soak in stabilizer. This will almost remove the stains.


There are actually a few kodak films without a remjet backing.
Ektachrome reversal does not have this issue.
Same for the remaining black and white stocks (Tri-x reversal, double-x neg etc)

As I understand it, some of the ecp based print stocks for printing colour neg films, also do not have a remjet backing.

However it is certainly true of the colour neg films.

I'd actually be a bit worried about using bleach.
Generally I use dilute bleach to remove the images from film and get clear leader! ;)
I'm not sure what the long term effects of using bleach might be on the film even if it works.
Perhaps this is why you soak the film in fix and stabilizer afterwards?!

love

Freya
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#18 Joshua Jackson

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 12:37 PM

As for sodium hydroxide, I've never seen a prebath formula with lye in it! Some developers may have a bit of lye in them but not the soaks. I can't imagine what that would do. ..

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/US_plugins_acrobat_en_motion_support_processing_h247_h2407.pdf

The H247 manual at kodak specifies 1.0g of Sodium Hydroxide to PreBath PB-2 for use to aid in the removal of remjet for ECN-2 Processing. Alternate Prebath PB-C1 doesn't require NaOH, however.
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#19 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 01:13 PM

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/US_plugins_acrobat_en_motion_support_processing_h247_h2407.pdf

The H247 manual at kodak specifies 1.0g of Sodium Hydroxide to PreBath PB-2 for use to aid in the removal of remjet for ECN-2 Processing. Alternate Prebath PB-C1 doesn't require NaOH, however.



The current Kodak premix chemistry cubes are Potassium Bicarbonate but you could probably use either it is just a agent to soften the carbon backing.


-Rob-
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