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Some HELP regarding the Nizo Pro, Tri-X 7266 and ASA


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#1 Micbress

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:07 AM

Hello everybody,

this is my first post and i choose to start with some infos that i really need...

I've bought a Nizo Pro and i'm waiting for a stock of Tri-x reversal 7266, i will use this setup for film during a residence period of 3 months so i thought that will be better clarify any doubt before start the fun.

I've read in this and other forums a lot of intresting material but i've also so some "common problems" that made me choose to ask before.

1-
I understood that the Nizo pro cand read a maximum of 160 ASA, in the rest of the cases the film will be "downgraded" to 100 ASA. So, correct me if i'm wrong, a Kodak Vision 200 will be lowered to 100 and a Tri-x 200 will be lowered to 100 using the 85B filter of the camera but can be "push" to 160 ASA if the camera filter is set on Bulb/Tungsten.

I intend to use the Tri-x for indoors and outdoors, static and dynamic shoots, what will be the correct combination for obtain a correct exposed film considering the 2 "scenes", indoor/outdoor? I tried to take it logically and i end up to this conclusion:

- for outdoors shoot in good light/sunny contitions use the film oh the daylight filter/85b in order to have a 100ASA speed that i consider ok for general/good light shooting.

-for indoors with medium/poor light use the Bulb filter to have an higher 160ASA and maybe use the compensation at +1 in order to push it a little bit and have a more lighted image.

I case of a very sunny day, conditions of much light, i presume that also a red filter or an ND filter can be used, regarding that can you please give me some advices of filters type, personal preferences etc?

2- If on the Nizo we have the possibility to compensate +1/overexpose (from the button in the centre of one dial) in order to have more light in our shoots, what is the solution for "cut off" some light/ underexpose in contidion of too much light? The lever from the "fade in/fade out" area will do the job? Maybe if setted at the mark 1/2 will cut in a half the light recived?

3- I intend to use the Timelaps and Auto B features, regarding this i have some doubt, so please confirm or infirm my thoughs:

-When the Auto B is selected the camera will film until the end of the cassette with a fps resulted from the time needed for each frame to expose correctly? At what speed will be projected these sequences if the fps resulted isn't standard?

-My wish is to use the Auto B mode for film in dark/very poor light conditions, but my intrest is to obtain some kind of slideshow and not a frenetic material, very speedy.

So, if i choose the Auto B, point the camera in the dark and start shooting, what will be? The camera will film until the cassette will end, at variable fps or the Auto B is connected to the Timer scale and so the camera exposes in Auto B but in the time set from the timer?

Im trying to understand if the Auto B works alone, like start in Auto B and the camera will do the job setting custom time for each frame, or if in Auto B is connected to the timer, case in which the camera will correctly expose the frame but in the interval of time setted from the timer.

If i will choose the "single frame with cable or remote" how the exposures will be done? And at what speed, 18fps?


I must recive the camera in few days, i've checked the manual but i still have these unresolved mysteries.

I apologies for all these questions and for my bad english :)

Thank you
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#2 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 12:08 PM

The Nizo series will max out a 160ASA. Tri-X is rated at 160ASA in artificial light, and 200ASA in daylight. The Nizo will read the cart as 160ASA when the filter switch is on "bulb", and will read as 100ASA on "sun" setting. So make sure you leave it on "bulb" and your camera will read the Tri-X as 160ASA. That means you will only be 1/3rd over exposed if shooting in daylight. You can take your light reading through the lense on Auto, the set manual exposure -1/3rd. So if auto exposure reads f8... set your needle manually to the left, 1/3rd of the way to F11. I would recommend a ND .6 filter.

The autoB is used with the shutter open on single frame timelapse in low light. you are always playing back at 18 or 24fps, so you will get a fast, streaky movement when played back.
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#3 Micbress

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 02:34 PM

The Nizo series will max out a 160ASA. Tri-X is rated at 160ASA in artificial light, and 200ASA in daylight. The Nizo will read the cart as 160ASA when the filter switch is on "bulb", and will read as 100ASA on "sun" setting. So make sure you leave it on "bulb" and your camera will read the Tri-X as 160ASA. That means you will only be 1/3rd over exposed if shooting in daylight. You can take your light reading through the lense on Auto, the set manual exposure -1/3rd. So if auto exposure reads f8... set your needle manually to the left, 1/3rd of the way to F11. I would recommend a ND .6 filter.

The autoB is used with the shutter open on single frame timelapse in low light. you are always playing back at 18 or 24fps, so you will get a fast, streaky movement when played back.



Thank your for your answer!

regarding the ND.6 filter and the filters matter in general, you suggest to use an ND.6 filter in daylight condition with the camera reading the tri-x at 160 ASA?

What's the diameter for the filters on the Nizo Pro?

I also intend to buy few Vision 2 and Vision 3. For the Vision 2 i presume that will work the same strategy applied for the Tri-x, set the camera on bulb and have the film at 160, with + 1/3 probably the results will be near the 200 ASA performance (please correct me if i m wrong), But in the case of the Vision 3 and the declqred 500ASA?

Regarding the compensation operation, on the camera we have the possibility to directly choose +1, after that the only way to adjust everything will be in Manual mode, right? A button for a +2 dosent exist.



Thx again
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#4 Micbress

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 04:51 AM

What's the diameter for the filters on the Nizo Pro?
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#5 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:08 PM

I can't quite remember the filter size on the Pro. 200T and 500T are both Vision 3 now. If rating 200T at 160ASA, the 1/3rd overexposure is a good thing for S8 negative film. With reversal like Tri-X, I would manually compensate to dead on, or 1/3rd underexpose. It's usually best to manually lock your exposure at what your auto exposure reads plus your compensation. For the best results, I would recommend a Kodak grey card... place it in your scene and meter off the card.

If your shooting outdoors, 200T will have an effective ASA of 125 with an 85B filter. However, you must install an external 85B filter on the lens because the internal filter will be disabled by the cartridge, and not possible to use. Shooting tungston color film outside without the filter will come out very blue. Leave your filter switch on bulb (160ASA) The meter takes the reading through the lense so it will automatically adjust for the 2/3rds stop eaten up by the external 85B filter.

Edited by Anthony Schilling, 20 September 2010 - 12:09 PM.

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#6 Claus Harding

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:33 PM

Michele,

The filter diameter on the Nizo Pro is 62mm.

Claus.
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#7 Micbress

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:34 PM

I can't quite remember the filter size on the Pro. 200T and 500T are both Vision 3 now. If rating 200T at 160ASA, the 1/3rd overexposure is a good thing for S8 negative film. With reversal like Tri-X, I would manually compensate to dead on, or 1/3rd underexpose. It's usually best to manually lock your exposure at what your auto exposure reads plus your compensation. For the best results, I would recommend a Kodak grey card... place it in your scene and meter off the card.

If your shooting outdoors, 200T will have an effective ASA of 125 with an 85B filter. However, you must install an external 85B filter on the lens because the internal filter will be disabled by the cartridge, and not possible to use. Shooting tungston color film outside without the filter will come out very blue. Leave your filter switch on bulb (160ASA) The meter takes the reading through the lense so it will automatically adjust for the 2/3rds stop eaten up by the external 85B filter.



Anthony, thanks a lot for your answers, i ve saw many others good advices from you in different topics!

Meanwhile i have find the filter diameter size for the Nizo Pro, 62mm. I will look after an 85B filter to use with tungsten film in daylight conditions and for a ND.6 for use with the BW stock.

At the beginning i was just a little bit frustrated (avoiding to say affraid, like in the wellknow song...) regarding all this ASA situation; where and when compensate and so on, but at the end i concluded that there is nothing really difficult,and i will post here my conclusions because i saw many newbie (like me) asking the same questions:

1- if use a 200 ASA Tri-x 7266 film the camera will read it at 100 ASA with the 85 filter on, and at 160 ASA with filter off/Bulb setting. If used at 100 ASA (daylight symbol) the results will be clearly overexposed (too much light on the image) because the camera retains necessary to let more light on film, believing that it's a 100 ASA film, so we have a +2 stop overexposure. In order to obtain good result shooting BW reversal we must set off the filter in order to let the camera read the film at 160 and underexpose a little bit , 1/3.

If we need a grainy result we can set the film at 100 ASA (daylight filter) and add an ND or red filter in order to underexpose enough/

2- If shoot a color negative stock like Vision 3, it is reccomended to overexpose it in order to obtain better results. If shooting indoors we can let the 200T film on Bulb setting in order to have it @ 160 and overexposed ( tungsten film) but if we intend to use it outdoor we must add an external 85B filter in order to get the right colours and not everything blu.

In the case of the 500T i think that the solution will be probably a combination: let the film @ 160 ASA but underexpose 2/3, i think that even if the color negative looks better overexposed, the 500 @160 will be too much. I still need some advices regarding that....

3- The Nizo cameras (in fact all the S8 cameras excluding the Leicina special and the Beaulieu) reads only ASA values of 100 and 160, so for the rest we need to compensate.
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#8 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 04:01 PM

Sounds like you've got it. With the 500T you want to underexpose at least 1 stop on the bulb setting. You will be then rating the film at 320ASA, still 2/3rds overexposed... which will give you more density and tighter grain. To expose it exact, go 1&2/3rds from the 160ASA camera setting.
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#9 Jim Carlile

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 02:26 AM

The Tri-X cartridge is speed-notched for ASA 250, but it's supplied in a notchless cartridge that will kick it down to ASA 160 in most cameras, which also means that the internal 85 filter is disabled. This is the SMPTE standard for super 8.

The silver Nizos can only read up to ASA 160. But supposedly, they provide an override on the kickdown that allows you to toggle back and forth between the ASA 100 and ASA 160 settings.

The way to check for this is when you first install your cartridge. Toggle the filter switch back and forth, and see if there is a slight 2/3 stop difference on the meter readout. If so then you're OK. Not sure what the specifc filter-switch setting will be for ASA 160, but it will be the smaller aperture between the two on the readout (that is, the larger number.)

What I would do-- just to make sure-- is cut a filter notch in those cartridges. That way the SMPTE kickdown won't occur, and the meter will be automatically set to ASA 160, and where you can also use the internal 85 filter to cut down the light by 2/3 stop in lieu of an external ND.
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#10 Micbress

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 03:29 PM

but what about keep all the time on the lens an UV filter? A good one will not neccesitate compensation, right?
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#11 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 05:16 PM

The Tri-X cartridge is speed-notched for ASA 250, but it's supplied in a notchless cartridge that will kick it down to ASA 160 in most cameras, which also means that the internal 85 filter is disabled. This is the SMPTE standard for super 8.

The silver Nizos can only read up to ASA 160. But supposedly, they provide an override on the kickdown that allows you to toggle back and forth between the ASA 100 and ASA 160 settings.

The way to check for this is when you first install your cartridge. Toggle the filter switch back and forth, and see if there is a slight 2/3 stop difference on the meter readout. If so then you're OK. Not sure what the specifc filter-switch setting will be for ASA 160, but it will be the smaller aperture between the two on the readout (that is, the larger number.)

What I would do-- just to make sure-- is cut a filter notch in those cartridges. That way the SMPTE kickdown won't occur, and the meter will be automatically set to ASA 160, and where you can also use the internal 85 filter to cut down the light by 2/3 stop in lieu of an external ND.


Even if the cartridge disables the filter, the Nizo readings are still dependant on the filter switch. Daylight setting reads 100ASA, tungston setting reads 160ASA. You can see the needle move 2/3rds stop when you toggle the switch.

Edited by Anthony Schilling, 22 September 2010 - 05:16 PM.

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#12 Micbress

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 01:24 PM

The Nizo series will max out a 160ASA. Tri-X is rated at 160ASA in artificial light, and 200ASA in daylight. The Nizo will read the cart as 160ASA when the filter switch is on "bulb", and will read as 100ASA on "sun" setting. So make sure you leave it on "bulb" and your camera will read the Tri-X as 160ASA. That means you will only be 1/3rd over exposed if shooting in daylight. You can take your light reading through the lense on Auto, the set manual exposure -1/3rd. So if auto exposure reads f8... set your needle manually to the left, 1/3rd of the way to F11. I would recommend a ND .6 filter.

The autoB is used with the shutter open on single frame timelapse in low light. you are always playing back at 18 or 24fps, so you will get a fast, streaky movement when played back.



Anthony, an ND 6 filter isnt too much? if we have the film on bulb at 160 for compensate we underexpose with 1/3 and considering that the reveras is better a bit underexposed i think we can set from the start a -1 value from the meter reading, but adding an ND6 filter that presume -2 isnt too much?

I tought that maybe an ND2 -1 stop will be the right choise, put-on the camera at 160 without underexpose the 1/3, i'm just asking, please correct me if i' wrong.

Thank you
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#13 Micbress

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 01:47 PM

Or you think that the correct value will be obtained using a ND6 -3 Stop, underexposed 1/8? I think that may be good, considering that at -1/4 we have the "correct value" and at -1/8 we have it underexposed, ok for reversal.
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#14 Jim Carlile

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 02:14 AM

...If your shooting outdoors, 200T will have an effective ASA of 125 with an 85B filter. However, you must install an external 85B filter on the lens because the internal filter will be disabled by the cartridge, and not possible to use. Shooting tungston color film outside without the filter will come out very blue. Leave your filter switch on bulb (160ASA) The meter takes the reading through the lense so it will automatically adjust for the 2/3rds stop eaten up by the external 85B filter.


That's true of VISION 2, but I think V3 is cartridged completely differently now. Kodak changed their philosophy.

V2 was supplied in a filter-notchless cartridge, which did two things: it automatically disabled the camera's internal 85 filter, and it set the exposure meter to the lower of the two ASA speeds that are indentified with that particular speed-indice.

So, you pop in the V200 cartridge. It's speed-notched for ASA 160 and it's also filter notchless, so it disables the 85 and at the same time sets the meter to ASA 100-- which, being 2/3 stop under ASA 160, is the lower 'daylight' ASA of that speed indice by design.

In the Nizo you can ignore this, and toggle back up to 'bulb' to set the meter to the higher ASA 160 if you want to. In V2, Kodak prefers ASA 100 because they like a one-stop overexposure for this film, which is the difference between ASA 200 and ASA 100. They also prefer using an external 85 filter over the lens instead of the camera's internal.

But they've changed their philosophy with VISION 3. Now they supply the film just like their regular, old-fashioned 'tungsten' S8 stocks, in a standard filter-notched cartridge, but still speed-notched at ASA 160 (there is no ASA 200 speed-indice in the S8 system). So now you have a choice. Sliding the filter switch to 'daylight' places the 85 filter into the light path for the daylight correction necessary with tungsten film. Sliding it to 'bulb' takes the filter out.

In both cases the meter is set to ASA 160. But with the filter in the way, you lose 2/3 stop, so the film now acts as if it were an ASA 100 film in terms of light sensitivity. It's an effective ASA of 100, not actual.

So with a 'notched' V3 cartridge, the Nizo doesn't do that same 'daylight' film-speed toggle thing. When you toggle to bulb, there's no filter. When you toggle to daylight, there's the correction filter in place. Any "ASA 100" only concerns the tungsten film with the 2/3 stop filter factor of the 85 in the way.

Your meter isn't actually being set now to ASA 100, as it would be with true 'daylight film' supplied in a notchless daylight cartridge-- like V2 was.
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Gamma Ray Digital Inc

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Metropolis Post

Willys Widgets

Glidecam

Broadcast Solutions Inc

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