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Trouble developing Fomapan B/W Reversal R100


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#1 Thomas Larang

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 04:28 PM

Hi everyone!

Im in desperate need of help here. I'm trying to develop this stock - Fomapan R100 - with it's own developing kit designed especially for this.

I do all of the steps - 1st developing - Bleaching - Clearing bath in darkness, and when I turn on the lights I can clearly see the things I filmed with my super-8. I do the re-exposure step, BUT, when I do the 2nd developing step, all of it goes black, everything that I filmed disappears into total darkness.

What am I doing wrong? Plz help me if you can. I have developed Tri-x before and it worked fine every time. But I have only had slight success with Fomapan, with it's own kit.

/Thomas

Edited by Thomas Larang, 23 September 2010 - 04:30 PM.

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#2 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 05:02 PM

How are your temperatures? It sounds like you are over developing the second developer.

-Rob-
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#3 Thomas Larang

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 05:07 PM

How are your temperatures? It sounds like you are over developing the second developer.

-Rob-


All my temperatures are as they should be - room temperature.

Thing is, when I get to the second exposure, I can clearly see all the things I filmed on the emulsion side, but there is still a brown layer on the other side. Shouldn't that layer be gone by this stage? The film is not transparent at all as I remeberad Tri-x being by this point...aah I'm going nuts.

I've tried different developing times of 1st developer, as low as 4 minutes and as long as 15 minutes. All of it ends up being clearly visible until I dip the filmstrip in the 2 developer solution, and all goes black immediately. (with a bleaching pass and a clearing pas in between of course)

Edited by Thomas Larang, 23 September 2010 - 05:11 PM.

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#4 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 05:59 PM

Hi everyone!

Im in desperate need of help here. I'm trying to develop this stock - Fomapan R100 - with it's own developing kit designed especially for this.

I do all of the steps - 1st developing - Bleaching - Clearing bath in darkness, and when I turn on the lights I can clearly see the things I filmed with my super-8. I do the re-exposure step, BUT, when I do the 2nd developing step, all of it goes black, everything that I filmed disappears into total darkness.

What am I doing wrong? Plz help me if you can. I have developed Tri-x before and it worked fine every time. But I have only had slight success with Fomapan, with it's own kit.

/Thomas

Hi Thomas,
when you say you can see what you shot when you have the lights on during re-exposure, what do the images look like? Do you see any black on the film (which is developed silver like a conventional silver negative)? Or is what you are seeing basically a cream coloured roll of film (with no silver) but with a faint trace of the images you shot still visible as a slightly lighter cream colour? If there is any silver there at all from the images you shot (ie if there is any black at all on the film after bleaching) then your bleaching isn't doing the job it is supposed to.
So tell us about the image you see during re-exposure.
richard
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#5 Thomas Larang

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:37 AM

Hi Thomas,
when you say you can see what you shot when you have the lights on during re-exposure, what do the images look like? Do you see any black on the film (which is developed silver like a conventional silver negative)? Or is what you are seeing basically a cream coloured roll of film (with no silver) but with a faint trace of the images you shot still visible as a slightly lighter cream colour? If there is any silver there at all from the images you shot (ie if there is any black at all on the film after bleaching) then your bleaching isn't doing the job it is supposed to.
So tell us about the image you see during re-exposure.
richard


Hi Richard,

What I see during Re-exposure is my white bleached base of film, with the things I filmed in black, and that's how it should be, right? The backside of the film though is brown. Is it really supposed to be brown? Shouldn't the film have some transparencies because right now it is not transparent at all, just white-bleached with black motifs on emulsion side, and brown on the other.

Edited by Thomas Larang, 24 September 2010 - 12:42 AM.

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#6 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 06:23 AM

right, if what you can see during re-exposure are black images, then the bleach hasn't done its job. There should be no black at all. None whatsoever. The black is silver, and all developed silver from the first development should be washed away by the bleach, leaving only un-developed silver-haylide. Yes, you can see a version of your photographed imagery, however the scene should only be visible as the absense of silver-haylide. Fomapan has a silver anti-halation backing on the base side of the film. This too should be bleached away by the bleach. I suspect the brown layer you see is the anti-halation silver backing indicating that the bleach is the problem. Failure to bleach would result in completely black film upon re-developing. ARe you sure you are mixing the bleach properly? Is it a potasium permangenate bleach or a potasium dichromate bleach? What acid is involved?
cheers,
richard
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#7 Thomas Larang

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:02 AM

right, if what you can see during re-exposure are black images, then the bleach hasn't done its job. There should be no black at all. None whatsoever. The black is silver, and all developed silver from the first development should be washed away by the bleach, leaving only un-developed silver-haylide. Yes, you can see a version of your photographed imagery, however the scene should only be visible as the absense of silver-haylide. Fomapan has a silver anti-halation backing on the base side of the film. This too should be bleached away by the bleach. I suspect the brown layer you see is the anti-halation silver backing indicating that the bleach is the problem. Failure to bleach would result in completely black film upon re-developing. ARe you sure you are mixing the bleach properly? Is it a potasium permangenate bleach or a potasium dichromate bleach? What acid is involved?
cheers,
richard


I see, I'll try to mix a new bleaching mix from the start and give it another go tonight. I think I'll do a comparison with a new developer as well to really see which one of the steps is cuasing this, just out of curiosity.
The bleaching is a mix of sulfuric acid and Potassium permanganate.

I'll get back with the results later!
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#8 Simon Wyss

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 10:39 AM

Thomas

Give the film three to five minutes in the bleach bath, a short intermediate water rinse, then five minutes in the clearing bath with enough agitation, and two minutes in water, agitated. Then only switch on the light, incandescent light. Continue to agitate in water until five minutes completed.

If you still have too dense a positive the first development was under. Nine to eleven minutes will be appropriate at 20 degree Celsius. First and second developer can be identical. Make sure you develop without fog. To check this develop simple positive film wich you can purchase at a lab. Expose the positive stock in your camera reading the meter for 10 ISO.
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#9 Thomas Larang

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 01:27 PM

Thomas

Give the film three to five minutes in the bleach bath, a short intermediate water rinse, then five minutes in the clearing bath with enough agitation, and two minutes in water, agitated. Then only switch on the light, incandescent light. Continue to agitate in water until five minutes completed.

If you still have too dense a positive the first development was under. Nine to eleven minutes will be appropriate at 20 degree Celsius. First and second developer can be identical. Make sure you develop without fog. To check this develop simple positive film wich you can purchase at a lab. Expose the positive stock in your camera reading the meter for 10 ISO.


I found the problem! Richard was right, the bleaching mix was faulty.
I even tried dipping a portion of the previously wasted filmstrips in the bleaching in lamp light, and loo and behold, I get a negative! I even tried to do a second develop on this strip, but it wouldn't do, but at least I can now get a negative and save that precious shot! So basically, I guess the bleaching was faulty, causing the anti-halation layer to remain, causing the filmstrip to remain un-transparent. Correct bleaching mix made the strip transparent where it should be. Horray!

Edited by Thomas Larang, 24 September 2010 - 01:28 PM.

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#10 Thomas Larang

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 05:40 PM

Ok, so I rescued the films I first thought was lost, so here's is what I'm wondering now: Is there any loss or gain in resolution with developing reversal film as negatives? Is it noticable at all after scanning?

/Thomas
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#11 K Borowski

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:17 PM

This cannot be done with Fomapan, sorry. Other reversal films don't have this problem, but Fomapan has a special layer that iis disolved in the reversal process only.
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#12 Thomas Larang

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 02:12 AM

This cannot be done with Fomapan, sorry. Other reversal films don't have this problem, but Fomapan has a special layer that iis disolved in the reversal process only.


Not that's not completely true, to rescue some of those filmstrips I had to use the bleach fix from an E6-kit I had, which also turned out to be a possible negative bleacher since it removed this layer. (I suppose you mean the anti-halation layer). Does anyone now if this procedure is ruining my film? I only have my Super8 monitor to view the film so I can't really see if the small deatils get lost, but it looks good from what I can see so far in the monitor.
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#13 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:03 PM

Not that's not completely true, to rescue some of those filmstrips I had to use the bleach fix from an E6-kit I had, which also turned out to be a possible negative bleacher since it removed this layer. (I suppose you mean the anti-halation layer). Does anyone now if this procedure is ruining my film? I only have my Super8 monitor to view the film so I can't really see if the small deatils get lost, but it looks good from what I can see so far in the monitor.

Hi Thomas,
if you have managed to devise a process that results in a negative image from Fomapan R100 reversal film, then you are the first! It struck me as odd when you wrote above that you had managed to re-bleach back to a negative one of the films which had come out black after second development. Bleaching takes off all the silver. It does so progressively of course. The thinner bits will dissolve quicker than the thicker bits. It also works from the edges of the film towards the centre. The bleach used in colour processes can work differently; instead of being a disolving bleach which dissolves the silver out, it can be a converting bleach which converts the developed silver back to silver hailide. The fixer then dissolves the silver hailide out. I don't quite know why Blix (bleach-fix) would have the effect you have achieved, unless it is just that you pulled the film out before the image dissapeared completely. I am intregued to know more about what you have done.
cheers,
richard
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#14 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:09 PM

To answer your question about grain, film processed as a negative will in general have more apparent grain than the same film processed as reversal. This is because during exposure, a greater proportion of the larger silver hailide crystals have managed to be hit by a photon of light than the smaller crystals. This means that during first (or negative) development, there are more of the larger crystals developed into silver than the smaller ones - so the negative image comprises larger crystals, which, as clumps, are the visible grain. In reversal, these larger crystals are then bleached out, leaving a greater proportion of the smaller crystals to form the positive image during the second development stage.
cheers,
richard
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#15 Thomas Larang

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:19 AM

To answer your question about grain, film processed as a negative will in general have more apparent grain than the same film processed as reversal. This is because during exposure, a greater proportion of the larger silver hailide crystals have managed to be hit by a photon of light than the smaller crystals. This means that during first (or negative) development, there are more of the larger crystals developed into silver than the smaller ones - so the negative image comprises larger crystals, which, as clumps, are the visible grain. In reversal, these larger crystals are then bleached out, leaving a greater proportion of the smaller crystals to form the positive image during the second development stage.
cheers,
richard


Thanks Richard for the reply
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#16 Sandy McLennan

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 04:09 PM

Hi Thomas,
if you have managed to devise a process that results in a negative image from Fomapan R100 reversal film, then you are the first! It struck me as odd when you wrote above that you had managed to re-bleach back to a negative one of the films which had come out black after second development. Bleaching takes off all the silver. It does so progressively of course. The thinner bits will dissolve quicker than the thicker bits. It also works from the edges of the film towards the centre. The bleach used in colour processes can work differently; instead of being a disolving bleach which dissolves the silver out, it can be a converting bleach which converts the developed silver back to silver hailide. The fixer then dissolves the silver hailide out. I don't quite know why Blix (bleach-fix) would have the effect you have achieved, unless it is just that you pulled the film out before the image dissapeared completely. I am intregued to know more about what you have done.
cheers,
richard

Blix had a good effect at the end of this procedure:

33 feet of Fomapan regular (double) 8mm R100 (way overexposed), 1 litre bucket of Dektol 1:5 + 1/4 teaspoon sodium thiocyanate crystals (one minute at 23C), 30 seconds in each of 3 water buckets, used bleach (for 100' of super 8, kept topped up containers) "R10" (potassium permanganate, sulphuric acid, Calgon) for 3 minutes (room light on after 2 minutes - thanks Richard for that tip). Images showed the sun reflecting off water as black dots; they were visible while in the bleach after 2 minutes then disappeared as a yellow opaque surface took over the film. 3-bucket rinse, re-exposed to light, 3-bucket rinse, second developer Dektol 1:3 (no hypo), 3-bucket rinse, Kodak Fixer 1:1 double the time of clip test. Film was almost opaque, with a sepia kind of tone, the sun images barely visible when projected. Dunked it a few minutes in a bleach which is 800ml Hydrogen Peroxide (9%) + 200ml vinegar (no change in the film).

A couple of days later I pre-soaked it in water then 1 litre of room temp (23C) E-6 blix for 3 minutes. That was too long, as some of the film cleared completely, but many feet are partly cleared and a nice high contrast, useable projected image. Thanks!

PS. Half the 33' I developed as negative in the Dektol 1:5 + hypo, rinse, Kodak Fixer. The sun spots appeared black (although that whole length of film was very dark, with the sepia-like tone). After the blix, that length of film is mostly completely clear, except for some black images of the sun - so it seems it is a negative. I will try again, with "better" exposed film.

PPS. We can't buy Calgon in Canada. What can I substitute for it in the permanganate/sulfuric acid bleach? Thanks


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#17 aapo lettinen

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 06:39 PM

I haven't used the Foma reversal kit but a plain Potassium Permanganate + Sulfuric Acid  bleach is only good for couple of minutes after mixing so the problem may be that the bleach was mixed too early before use and thus aged before getting in contact with the film? with the plain stuff it is recommended to use it immediately after mixing the two solutions


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