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100T, 200T & 500T Super 16mm


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#1 Gene Warriner

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 07:47 PM

Hey fellow film lovers my name is Gene Warriner from New Zealand. I've just joined up and have a querry to anyone who might have a suggestion.

I am the cinematographer on a film we are shooting at film school in october, it's set in 1945, 3/4's of the film are exterior day scenes and the other 1/4 is interior night in a dining room. I'm thinking of going with 200T for the ext. and 500T for the int. but i've been doing a bit of reading and alot of people say the 100T is great of exterior daylight, some scenes involve rain but too so im not sure what road to go down, your help would be much appreciated!! thank you in advance.

Cheers
Gene Warriner
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#2 Chris Burke

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 10:12 PM

Hey fellow film lovers my name is Gene Warriner from New Zealand. I've just joined up and have a querry to anyone who might have a suggestion.

I am the cinematographer on a film we are shooting at film school in october, it's set in 1945, 3/4's of the film are exterior day scenes and the other 1/4 is interior night in a dining room. I'm thinking of going with 200T for the ext. and 500T for the int. but i've been doing a bit of reading and alot of people say the 100T is great of exterior daylight, some scenes involve rain but too so im not sure what road to go down, your help would be much appreciated!! thank you in advance.

Cheers
Gene Warriner



You are on the right track. 500T for the night interiors and 100T for the outdoor daytime. If you can, use the 50D or 64D for the exteriors. If you are still shopping around for a stock may I suggest the Fuji Vivid stocks. The 500T Vivid has incredibly deep rich blacks, really tight grain for super 16. Actually the two stocks are quite close in grain, with the 160T being grainier than you might think and the 500T being rather fine grained. Also, if you will be shooting in the rain or on a very overcast day, you may want to have a bit of 250D around.
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#3 Gene Warriner

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 10:43 PM

Hey Chris thanks for the reply!

The school only uses Kodak film and ive never used the fuji film before. I'm trying to just stick with the tungsten stocks at this stage aswell too and New Zealand has some of the harshest lit skies in the world because of the hole in the o-zone layer we have, so even on rainy days it is still pretty bright unless we're talking thunder storms plus i think we'll be creating the rain effect too.
I will look into the 50D stocks abit more.

Cheers
Gene Warriner
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#4 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 11:16 PM

Gene,
when it comes to picking a stock a lot depends on what particular 1940s period look you're going for. And, even then, a stock really only get you partially there; lighting styles, lens selection, and most importantly production design, are what really will set the tone of things. I'm not trying to diminish the stock choice as part of that, but we all can perhaps get you more of the way there if we know what look you're looking for. Any stills you can post for us, or films you're looking at?
I'd look into the Fuji stocks, see if you can get the school to carry 'em for you, they, for me, feel a little less "modern," than the kodak stocks (which are amazing as well) but also perhaps just the little "otherness" of the Fuji might help you out.
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#5 Ben Brahem Ziryab

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:56 AM

I agree with Adrian, in a sense that a period look can be a thousand different things and approached very differently. For night interior shots, go fro the 7219. Grain structure is drastically improved and it's great for low light. Fuji color stocks are also great, because of their less organic and modern feel, slightly lower in contrast. But I would have a bright, vivid image and get as much information on the negative as possible, with proper lab supervision by Kodak. Leave the rest of the look for the color timing.
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#6 Gene Warriner

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 02:23 PM

Yep i was already going with the 19 for the interior shots and we cant get the fuji film.
the art department, the director and I have decided to go with a slightly washed out warm look, with reds, peach, yellows, green and blue.
the movie is set out in the country side and the family portraid isn't that well off money wise so everything is going to look run down and old.
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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 03:42 PM

Since you are shooting 16mm, I'd recommend against 500T except when you absolutely need it (night exteriors).


I don't know why so many people here are recommending Fuji. The grain in 16 is already so pronounced, especially with 500T, that you don't need any extra "help" in that area. I've never compared the two side-by-side in S16, but I'd go with the cleanest 500T you can get. Remember they were shooting super slow, sub-25 ASA film back then, so 7219, despite all the "fine grained" hype behind it, will be much more grainy than even what you could get back then, 65 years ago.

In that era, if you are going for an "authentic" look, most people were shooting 35mm B&W for newsreels, as theatres were still the primary visual news source in the era just before television emerged in the early-to-mid-'50s.

Most 16mm work was amateur movies, although most of the early color photography was 16mm Kodachrome (due, primarily to cost, it was only available in 16mm motion picture and 35mm stills until after the end of WWII).


I'd go for '01 if you can get it, for daylight exteriors; tungsten stock won't be any less "harsh," hole in the ozone or not. It doesn't have to do with color balance, it has to do with the amount of fill or bounce fill you can use to even this out.


I agree with Adrian: You need to post stills of what you are trying to go for, or at the very least, a more detailed description than we have now. . .

Edited by Karl Borowski, 27 September 2010 - 03:43 PM.

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#8 Edgar Dubrovskiy

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 05:32 PM

I would not recommend going above 250D ASA if you don't like a deliberately grainy image. To my eye 500 ASA is too grainy on s16. If you can - I would suggest lighting interiors for 200T. New Vision3 is very nice, tight-grain, stock.

Edited by Edgar Dubrovskiy, 27 September 2010 - 05:33 PM.

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#9 Gene Warriner

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 07:42 PM

Karl here are some feels we are going towards.

Hey Edgar, yea i've actually been quite keen on going for the 200T for the interior night shots and im going to a kodak V3 200T demonstration next week at Park Road Post here in Wellington so that will probably make me go for it if it impresses.

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#10 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 09:35 PM

You'll have some trouble getting the "cleanness" of The Assasination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Crawford on S16mm, as that was an anamorphic 35mm shot (highest quality film you get until you go IMAX sized....)

That being said, you'll be well served by T stocks for all of it. It looks to me like an 81EF filter for correction on the day ext, but don't quote me on that... perhaps you should speak with mr Deakins over at his own website forum. I'm sure he can speak to those particular scenes. Also, keep in mind, Production Design.
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#11 Gene Warriner

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 10:22 PM

Haha I know i won't get the cleaness of 35 with s16, thats a given. what I put the photos up for is the for the feel and mood we are going for.

Cheers Gene
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#12 Edward Goldner

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:01 PM

Hey Gene,

Both the 200T and 100T are great stocks.

It's worth mulling over where on the aperture you want to be sitting at. I tend to rate 100T at 64asa and 200T at around 100asa. Not a huge jump in terms of speeds if you expose them this way.

Unless I'm going for a grainy look, I tend to aim for slower speed stocks but in this case, I'd find it difficult to see much of a difference in grain structure between the two stocks given the new technology that has gone into the 200T (assuming you're talking about shooting 7213).

I also imagine you'll be using an 85 to correct the stock for exteriors? If so, it may be worth considering 50D since you'll be sitting at around the same exposures as you would be using 100T with an 85. Personally, I prefer keeping filtration to a minimum (one less thing to keep track of and makes it easier to see through the viewfinder). Really depends on the location / weather / times in which you'll be shooting - if you plan to go late into the day it may be worth sticking to tungsten as you can pull the 85 if you're desperate and correct it in post.

On the other hand, 200T could be a good option as it is quite a flexible speed and depending on your lighting package, can accommodate night interiors / exteriors along with the aforementioned day material. May also be nice to stick to the one stock in terms of matching - that said, most of the newer Kodak stocks match pretty well.

Hope this helps.

Goodluck!

Ed
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#13 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:06 PM

I totally agree with Ed on the 200T, back in the days of '17 (not too long ago!) it was my go to stock if I didn't know what'd be thrown at me. You can rate it down and compensate with ND, or you can push it a bit to get it 'round a 400 for night work without much issue. The '13 is supposedly a lot better, I haven't tried it myself but shouldn't hurt you ;)

A lot of the look in those stills comes from production design, in the two exteriors, as well as waiting for the right conditions to shoot. The interior shot as well is production designed marvelously, and the lighting isn't too hard to accomplish, a little CTO will do you! I'd recommend shooting some tests with your costuming and actors to see how they read, if you can. Also, as I said, keep an 81EF around. It's a warming filter and can help with interior shots to give more warmth to them, as opposed to gelling lights, or, as I normally use it, for 1/2 correction to daylight when shooting tungsten stocks, giving a slight blue look that you can go either way with in post (enhance or remove,) without too much degradation and depending on what you choose. Most useful when you're not 100% how "blue" you want your ext to be. It's the same correction as an 85, so you don't sacrifice too much exposure.
I know some people say to shoot nude, but I don't mind having some filters on the lens, gives some extra flexibility, but watch out for light leak reflections!
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#14 Edgar Dubrovskiy

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 04:16 AM

im going to a kodak V3 200T demonstration next week at Park Road Post here in Wellington so that will probably make me go for it if it impresses.


You will love it :) I went to one here, in London, couple month ago. If they will show the same stuff - look out for a very cool 2-perf presentation. And their s16 examples. So freaking well exposed and clean - they scanned at 3K.
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#15 K Borowski

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 04:59 AM

Thanks for the clips. Which movie is the one in the middle from? First is "Assassin...," third is "Basterds," right?


I agree, your best bet may be with "Lucky 13" (make sure to get V3, not V2:-) and try to get '01 for exteriors. If you are mimicking 35mm anamorphic photography, I'd recommend rating them at EIs of 125 and 32, respectively, and shooting wide open on longer lenses from as far away as possible to try to match the depth of field of 35mm. It wont be a perfect match, mind you, but that should be what you're going for.


As for lighting? It seems as if you have three distinct looks in your movies.

First problem, of course, is getting enough light for exposure with '13. You'll have quite a bit to set up, but it'll be worth it.


BTW, IDK if they have this show in your neck of the woods, but "Friday Night Lights" here is shot on the Fuji Eterna 500T stock, I think predominantly, if you want to see how grainy S16 high speed stocks are in HD. (I know this because the last movie I film loaded on had inherited a bunch of empty cans from that show, and I think all the cans we had were the 500T).
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#16 Gene Warriner

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 02:39 PM

Thanks for the clips. Which movie is the one in the middle from? First is "Assassin...," third is "Basterds," right?


The Middle one is The assasination of jesse james too.


As for lighting? It seems as if you have three distinct looks in your movies.
First problem, of course, is getting enough light for exposure with '13. You'll have quite a bit to set up, but it'll be worth it.


i've been doing tests just with my meter set at 200asa 24 fps and its looks like it will take it all in wide open (1.4)
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#17 Harrison Schaaf

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 05:47 PM

You are on the right track. 500T for the night interiors and 100T for the outdoor daytime. If you can, use the 50D or 64D for the exteriors. If you are still shopping around for a stock may I suggest the Fuji Vivid stocks. The 500T Vivid has incredibly deep rich blacks, really tight grain for super 16. Actually the two stocks are quite close in grain, with the 160T being grainier than you might think and the 500T being rather fine grained. Also, if you will be shooting in the rain or on a very overcast day, you may want to have a bit of 250D around.



much appreciated info chris - thanks for that...

what are your thoughts on shooting daytime exteriors with the 500t and an 85 filter?

i'm going to be shooting a 16mm student film in connecticut over the next couple of weeks - we tested a zillion stocks and decided that we loved the deep blacks and color treatments of the vivid 500t - this will definitely be our go-to stock for interiors and some complicated night scenes with headlight reveals and heavy shadows.

regrettably, we never had the chance to test any of the vivid stuff for daytime exteriors - have you ever shot any of the fuji 500t for day (this would simplify our lives by allowing us to only order and deal with one stock) or would it make more sense to order some 160t or 250d?

any input would be much appreciated! thanks!
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