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Kodak 5222 Negative Versus Reversal stock


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#1 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:30 PM

I understand that in color photography, one of the main differences between negative and reversal stock (visually) is the increased saturation of color. This leads me to my next question, what are the fundamental differences between color reversal, and black and white reversal, being that black and white is...black and white. And going from there, why do we need a reversal alternative to kodaks 5222? If anybody happens to have any visual references between the two, be it films they've shot, frame grabs from movies, written examples, etc. please include them in discussion!

Thanks very much, interested to find this out.
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#2 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:49 PM

And going from there, why do we need a reversal alternative to kodaks 5222?

Because you don't need to strike a print to see what you shot with the reversal..
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#3 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 08:28 PM

Because you don't need to strike a print to see what you shot with the reversal..

Fair enough. But it seems to me there must be other (visual) differences between black and white negative versus reversal, above and beyond the time/monetary savings of shooting reversal.
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#4 Simon Wyss

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 11:27 AM

Evan, negative-positive processes are professional because the possibilities with a negative original correspond with professional demands. A negative’s latitude is bigger than a reversal film’s one. The printing step alone allows so many tricks to be installed. The knack is actually that bringing together of two quite different stocks. The original is usually made of a panchromatic medium to high speed grey-base film, the copy in general of a non sensitized low speed colourless-base film. Each one suits its conditions of exposure at a reasonable price.

Black-and-white cinematography can be very dull, can be most brilliant. One or the other of the so-called black and white movies of past years could have been real silver film. But they were not. Too many producers still cling to streamlined ideas. Yet, there have never been more different black-and-white films on the market than today. China Lucky, Bergger, Efke, Foma, Ilford, Gigabitfilm, Shostka (Polypan), Eastman-Kodak, Agfa-Gevaert, Orwo, Fuji (yes), Adox; sound recording film, duplicating film, printing film, traffic surveillance film, general surveillance film, general-purpose negative and reversal film, microfilm, microfilm duplicating film, X-ray film, infrared film, nostalgic film. One can have 0.004 ISO to 4000 ISO, no grain to very coarse grain.

Go and try out.
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#5 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 06:32 PM

there have never been more different black-and-white films on the market than today. China Lucky, Bergger, Efke, Foma, Ilford, Gigabitfilm, Shostka (Polypan), Eastman-Kodak, Agfa-Gevaert, Orwo, Fuji (yes), Adox;


I thought that the shostka ("Svema") factory was now gone.
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#6 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 07:20 PM

I thought that the shostka ("Svema") factory was now gone.

yeah, Svema are definitely gone. Tasma is still going though I believe.
Its a very impressive list Simon, however of those you list, only Kodak and Orwo make film sold as cine camera film in 16 and 35mm. yes, you can shoot the agfa sound neg and print stock as camera film in both guages . Foma is limited to 16mm reversal as you know, and Ilford do advertise one stock as suitable for cine use but is 100' 35mm only I believe. As for Lucky, Fuji, Efke, Berger, Adox etc., I don't believe these companies offer bw cine film at all - though i would happily be proven wrong. You might be able to get a 100' length of 35mm, but surely not at a cine price.
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#7 Freya Black

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:10 AM

And going from there, why do we need a reversal alternative to kodaks 5222?


There isn't a reversal alternative to 5222. 5222 is the only B&W stock available in 35mm.

There are obviously a couple of reversal stocks in 16mm which are useful because they can be directly projected without the expense of making a print. Tri-x is only available as reversal these days too so thats useful if you are going for a grainier look.

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#8 Freya Black

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:16 AM

yes, you can shoot the agfa sound neg and print stock as camera film in both guages.


The ST8 changed a while back to being polyester based instead of acetate. You can obviously still shoot it but it might be a bit dangerous. I have thought about hand cranking it tho.

Theres still some older ST8 kicking about tho!

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#9 Freya Black

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:20 AM

Fair enough. But it seems to me there must be other (visual) differences between black and white negative versus reversal, above and beyond the time/monetary savings of shooting reversal.


Reversal tends to be lower grain and more silvery than the same film in negative.

Check out the movie Pi for an example of a movie shot in 16mm B&W reversal.

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#10 Simon Wyss

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:46 AM

Oh, yes, Tasma, not Svema.

Fomapan R was available in 35 until at least 2004 in rolls to 1000', and still is in 100' length, P perf. or unperforated. Filmotec perforate 35-mm. and 16-mm. stock on request, acetate and polyester.

Ilford, malfunctioning Engländer, could flood the market with Pan F, FP 4, HP 5 in ciné gauges if they wanted. Dummie cartons in shop windows, ads, flags, cans in fridges in Italy, in Mississippi, in Brisbane. Many an amateur or pro might pick his camera back en voyage, the Eumig C 16, the GSMO, the Revere, a Paillard-Bolex, an Eyemo.

Lucky will sell unperforated 35. Fuji has microfilms that can be perforated. Efke KB 25, 50, 100 run in the Frankenkonvas, run in the Camerette. Bergger, I was in contact with Monsieur Gérard, needs only enough demand. From Adox am I awaiting a reply to the proposal of an 800 ISO stock.

I’m not sure whether Manhattan was a true black and white. But Woody Allen could not resist an allusion of explosivity for that one. See the first three minutes.
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#11 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 05:34 AM

Does not Fuji make a b/w film for non US markets? Or am I thinking of a color reversal here?
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#12 Simon Wyss

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 11:02 AM

Do you mean type 71112 FG 80D/64T in 35 and 72161 RP in 16 mm ? These films were manufactured by Oriental like all Fuji black-and-white stocks including Fujipan R 50 and Fujipan SSS R 200 on polyester in Single-8.
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#13 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:47 PM

Reversal tends to be lower grain and more silvery than the same film in negative.

Check out the movie Pi for an example of a movie shot in 16mm B&W reversal.


I've found that Tri-X has a snappier grain grain than 7222, which looked just mushy.

& TXR is sharper, though contrastier.

'Chan is Missing' was blown up from 16mm reversal and looks great. It also used 4XR, which is really grainy. It also shows what a great film PXR was.
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